reebdoog
TGCT Design Competition Directors
Posts: 2,742
TGCT Name: Brian Jeffords
Tour: CC-Pro
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Post by reebdoog on Apr 13, 2016 11:28:21 GMT -5
So, as I'm putting together my course for the Olympic contest I'm noticing myself falling into a little trap and it made me wonder what everyone else's feelings would be:
I have found myself designing greens and placing pins only in places where a close shot is POSSIBLE even if it's hard. I even went back and moved some pins because from the distances involved a shot any closer than 20 feet was VERY VERY difficult if not impossible due to contouring or the shot distance (one par 3 in particular that was between a 3 iron and wood).
The more I think about it though I'm not sure that's the best idea. Especially after the masters this last week it seems that having pins where a 20 foot shot is a GREAT shot is not all that big of a deal. However in this game that tends to be frowned upon because we as designers KNOW the limitations placed upon the player by the physics and distance limits of each club so we can AVOID that if we want too.
What do you guys think? Does ever pin need to provide a chance to get within 10 feet with a perfect shot or is simply getting on the dance floor with an uphill putt satisfy you? Don't just select an answer...think about how you'd feel playing a hole knowing that the only chance to get close is to be pretty freaking lucky and if you'd be ok knowing that a 20 footer is as good as it's gonna get.
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Post by jtcurrent on Apr 13, 2016 11:48:18 GMT -5
Imo...golf isn't supposed to be like throwing darts...it's more strategic. If 20 feet is the right place to be then that's a great shot. Pros in real life play away from the pin all the time.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Apr 13, 2016 12:04:31 GMT -5
I have the same minset that Jimmy usually brings up where you have a mix of Easy, Medium and Hard pins. If its for a multi pin event then have an easier accessable location one day and a b%& the next.
As for rolling the ball up onto the green, if its a links course then I dont mind it but if its a PGA style course then I dont like it.
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Post by Nemecyst on Apr 13, 2016 12:05:49 GMT -5
Two things really bother me on approach shots. One is having to land the ball short of the green to have any chance of actually keeping the ball on the green or even within 50ft. As long as there is an area to aim for where you can land the ball on the green surface and actually keep it on the green, even if it means 20ft away, I'm cool with it. The other is soft/medium greens with super firm fairways/rough. Landing a shot 1 inch short of the green and having it rocket off 20y when if the ball would have landed just 1 inch closer on the green it would have stopped within a few feet grinds my gears to no end.
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reebdoog
TGCT Design Competition Directors
Posts: 2,742
TGCT Name: Brian Jeffords
Tour: CC-Pro
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Post by reebdoog on Apr 13, 2016 12:09:25 GMT -5
Yeah, I don't think you need to land OFF the green to stay on...but you may have to land off the green to get close.
As for the ball rocketing off I have found that the firmness of the fairways can be set to soft and it will STILL rocket over sometimes. It's like the firm/speed setting doesn't matter unless your shot STARTS on the green. If you're off the green it's firmness ONLY and it's universal.
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Post by boomboom on Apr 13, 2016 12:11:59 GMT -5
Only problem with the 20 foot shot option I have, and I don't have much of 1, is it is not likely going to me my best option for the hole, I might then play for flop/chip. What I'm saying is, I will look and know that if my best shot is a 20 foot putt, no chance of any closer, I likely will go for the other option of the flop/chip even if it's much further away. However if the option presents itself as a possible closer putt, even unlikely, but possible, then I go for the green and the putt.
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Post by smurfblade88 on Apr 13, 2016 12:15:44 GMT -5
I think hittin a shot with 10-20ft shud always be possible if executed perfectly. As long as the answer isnt bouncing out if the rough. If the course is firm then allowin for shot to be bounced in 20y short to get close shud be possible to leave a decent chance of birdie.
My fav type of difficult set up is Firm & Fast with big greens that slope allowing for the slopes to be used to get reasonably close.
If theres 1 or 2 holes thats really really tough to leave a 10-20ft put thats fine imo...but havin tat on most holes is way too much.
Its up to you, its wat u want
Edit: Having run off areas around the green is a great option to prevent ppl playin for chips n flops from 6-15 yards.
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Post by Lowenberger on Apr 13, 2016 12:26:32 GMT -5
Only problem with the 20 foot shot option I have, and I don't have much of 1, is it is not likely going to me my best option for the hole, I might then play for flop/chip. What I'm saying is, I will look and know that if my best shot is a 20 foot putt, no chance of any closer, I likely will go for the other option of the flop/chip even if it's much further away. However if the option presents itself as a possible closer putt, even unlikely, but possible, then I go for the green and the putt. I'm with this. I voted that you should be able to get within 10 feet with a perfect shot, since if you can't get within 20 feet, people are just going to play for chips.
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Post by Nemecyst on Apr 13, 2016 12:52:36 GMT -5
Yeah, I don't think you need to land OFF the green to stay on...but you may have to land off the green to get close. See I don't get this either, why should the strategy to get the best result be to aim off of the green? If you can't get close by landing on the green, why the $@!% should you be able to get close by missing the green completely? That doesn't make any sense to me.
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reebdoog
TGCT Design Competition Directors
Posts: 2,742
TGCT Name: Brian Jeffords
Tour: CC-Pro
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Post by reebdoog on Apr 13, 2016 12:55:37 GMT -5
Only problem with the 20 foot shot option I have, and I don't have much of 1, is it is not likely going to me my best option for the hole, I might then play for flop/chip. What I'm saying is, I will look and know that if my best shot is a 20 foot putt, no chance of any closer, I likely will go for the other option of the flop/chip even if it's much further away. However if the option presents itself as a possible closer putt, even unlikely, but possible, then I go for the green and the putt. That's kind of one of the reasons I was bringing this up... it just seems as though having these big greens with tough pins is just often a waste of time. I know one thing I've started to do is to put a decent slope just BEHIND a pin to keep floppers from getting crazy. Smurfblade I've actually used a LOT of runoff areas on this one with that in mind as well. It's gotten fairly difficult to try and put a realistic course together that still provides the challenge needed. Simply sloping greens with Large long slopes is too much of a cop out for me. I don't see myself ever doing that. I'd rather it be a matter of finding the best approach angle or putting SEVERE slopes here and there that can be used to punish or reward... *shrug* We'll have to see how things turn out. I thought the firm fast approach I took at Elmview worked out pretty well. You needed to hit the green for your best shot most of the time. As an aside I don't think making the faiway soft would keep the ball from rocketing over a green... Why? Because the green speed means NOTHING when the ball didn't START on the green. If the ball lands or rolls onto the green the only thing the game seems to consider is the FIRMNESS. Even a soft fairway can have a ball go flying.
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reebdoog
TGCT Design Competition Directors
Posts: 2,742
TGCT Name: Brian Jeffords
Tour: CC-Pro
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Post by reebdoog on Apr 13, 2016 13:06:04 GMT -5
Yeah, I don't think you need to land OFF the green to stay on...but you may have to land off the green to get close. See I don't get this either, why should the strategy to get the best result be to aim off of the green? If you can't get close by landing on the green, why the $@!% should you be able to get close by missing the green completely? That doesn't make any sense to me. There are a lot of courses where this is true... usually it's more of a links style course but I've played places where landing off the green results in a better result. Part if it is how much spin you can put on the ball too.
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reebdoog
TGCT Design Competition Directors
Posts: 2,742
TGCT Name: Brian Jeffords
Tour: CC-Pro
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Post by reebdoog on Apr 13, 2016 13:07:38 GMT -5
Keep it going guys. I think it's a discussion that will help a lot of us out from a design standpoint. Right now the way I'm seeing things is that MOST folks are ok with leaving themselves 20 feet...but the problem with that is forcing everyone into a flop fest. That's the kind of info I'm looking for.
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Post by ErixonStone on Apr 13, 2016 13:47:06 GMT -5
I've always felt that, as a designer, I need to concede the green, but I don't need to concede the pin. If the short game was realistic - which for 90% of the general public, it is - then being 20 feet away but below the hole is a fair look at birdie. The problem is the 10% of people who play this game more than casually - us, as a community - have figured out the creative shots that completely defeat the design.
That's a game mechanics flaw, and I'm not sure it's the designers' responsibility to eliminate the use of those mechanics. Just know that, if you tuck a pin in a shallow area of the green, guys are going to leave short chips instead of long putts.
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Post by Lowenberger on Apr 13, 2016 13:55:45 GMT -5
Only problem with the 20 foot shot option I have, and I don't have much of 1, is it is not likely going to me my best option for the hole, I might then play for flop/chip. What I'm saying is, I will look and know that if my best shot is a 20 foot putt, no chance of any closer, I likely will go for the other option of the flop/chip even if it's much further away. However if the option presents itself as a possible closer putt, even unlikely, but possible, then I go for the green and the putt. That's kind of one of the reasons I was bringing this up... it just seems as though having these big greens with tough pins is just often a waste of time. I know one thing I've started to do is to put a decent slope just BEHIND a pin to keep floppers from getting crazy. Smurfblade I've actually used a LOT of runoff areas on this one with that in mind as well. It's gotten fairly difficult to try and put a realistic course together that still provides the challenge needed. Simply sloping greens with Large long slopes is too much of a cop out for me. I don't see myself ever doing that. I'd rather it be a matter of finding the best approach angle or putting SEVERE slopes here and there that can be used to punish or reward... *shrug* We'll have to see how things turn out. I thought the firm fast approach I took at Elmview worked out pretty well. You needed to hit the green for your best shot most of the time. As an aside I don't think making the faiway soft would keep the ball from rocketing over a green... Why? Because the green speed means NOTHING when the ball didn't START on the green. If the ball lands or rolls onto the green the only thing the game seems to consider is the FIRMNESS. Even a soft fairway can have a ball go flying.
Not sure I agree on the soft fairway comments. Played a few courses over the past couple months that have been firm-fast greens with soft fairways... if you landed on the fairway, the ball wouldn't kick anywhere near as hard due to the softness, and thus would end up stopping much faster than if it hit the firm green that would have kicked it 5 yards forward before even starting to roll.
Big greens still somewhat solve the chipping problem IMO, you just need to make sure that its not advantageous to play for the chip. I think for the most part people only play for the chip when there isn't a realistic option to go for the pin. As much as people complain, I don't believe that most players are making that many chips/flops over 12 or 15 yards.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Apr 13, 2016 13:58:04 GMT -5
That's kind of one of the reasons I was bringing this up... it just seems as though having these big greens with tough pins is just often a waste of time. I know one thing I've started to do is to put a decent slope just BEHIND a pin to keep floppers from getting crazy. Smurfblade I've actually used a LOT of runoff areas on this one with that in mind as well. It's gotten fairly difficult to try and put a realistic course together that still provides the challenge needed. Simply sloping greens with Large long slopes is too much of a cop out for me. I don't see myself ever doing that. I'd rather it be a matter of finding the best approach angle or putting SEVERE slopes here and there that can be used to punish or reward... *shrug* We'll have to see how things turn out. I thought the firm fast approach I took at Elmview worked out pretty well. You needed to hit the green for your best shot most of the time. As an aside I don't think making the faiway soft would keep the ball from rocketing over a green... Why? Because the green speed means NOTHING when the ball didn't START on the green. If the ball lands or rolls onto the green the only thing the game seems to consider is the FIRMNESS. Even a soft fairway can have a ball go flying.
Not sure I agree on the soft fairway comments. Played a few courses over the past couple months that have been firm-fast greens with soft fairways... if you landed on the fairway, the ball wouldn't kick anywhere near as hard due to the softness, and thus would end up stopping much faster than if it hit the firm green that would have kicked it 5 yards forward before even starting to roll.
Big greens still somewhat solve the chipping problem IMO, you just need to make sure that its not advantageous to play for the chip. I think for the most part people only play for the chip when there isn't a realistic option to go for the pin. As much as people complain, I don't believe that most players are making that many chips/flops over 12 or 15 yards.
You are totally right Damon. You don't hole as much as you think when chipping/flopping. I always and i mean ALWAYS play a shot to land on the green and stop on the green but IF i happen to go off the green i can use what i know.
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