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Post by Crazycanuck1985 on Dec 28, 2015 16:19:51 GMT -5
You need to realize how incredibly difficult it is to choose courses that will determine exactly where you should be placed coming out of Q-School. We have been looking at new Q-school courses for the past six months. We should have a brand new batch of Q-School courses ready to go for Jan. 1. Stay tuned. Except with everything being relative, the course doesn't matter. If I shot +15 in October and shooting par now, I've obviously gotten better and shouldn't be on the verge of dropping into Z Class after starting in D Class. Yes, that course, as good as I've gotten, is not really that hard. But my God, that's how HORRIBLE I was when I first started playing this game. So how is it that I've gotten that much better and yet I'm moving down in the classes? Again, it makes no mathematical sense. I pride myself on my logic and this whole scenario has me totally bumfuzzled. Something is very, very wrong. It seems as though you are improving, but others are improving much faster. Many people get this game and jump into Q-School right away and play terribly. It doesn't take too long to get better at this game and I'm sure many people who start off shooting in the 90s-100s are able to knock their totals down by 15-20 with a few weeks of play. You are telling us to fix the system. Telling us, the small group of volunteers who spend countless hours of our free time trying to operate a fun, competitive site for thousands of players to FIX THE SYSTEM...that bothers me. I think you need to work on voicing your concerns/suggestions in a more mature way. Whining and complaining like what you have been doing lately won't get you anywhere and fewer and fewer people will listen to what you are saying. I'll try to explain this (I'm not the Q-School expert, this is more Doyley's expertise) Our threshold scores (what score determines what tour you are in) are based on the nearly 5000 total Q-school scores we have seen in the last 12 months. We are closely monitoring scores and we discuss tweaking the threshold scores frequently. Right now the scores are set up in a way to try to balance the tours as much as possible. With the new Q-school courses, I'm sure tweaks will be made as we see new scores start to roll in.
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Post by Timbr0_T on Dec 28, 2015 16:21:36 GMT -5
I don't think anyone has been given more help and support with this game than you, wagtunes. I've held my tongue until now but your act is wearing a bit thin. There are so many people here who have been willing to donate their time and expertise to help you get better at this game yet you continue to complain and blame everything and everyone but yourself for your lack of improvement. it hardly has anything to do with the q school system, which isn't perfect, but how could it be? Typically you don't offer any suggestions to improve it, you just complain.
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Post by Airik3333 on Dec 28, 2015 16:22:20 GMT -5
I understand your point.. I just don't think it's that important.. Q-School is just a placing tool.. It is not perfect.. Q School is not the same for everyone.. Some guys go through Q School and they have been playing the game for months.. Some (like me) go through Q School when they are brand new to the game.. You get better and move up or you start slow and move down.. Just keep playing and you will eventually land where you are supposed to.. It just takes a little time.. Enjoy the journey !!
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Post by ABU_Bear on Dec 28, 2015 16:25:36 GMT -5
It doesn't matter where you are placed out of Q-School...the bottom line is it's you against the course. The rankings and tiers are just a way to track your progress against your peers.
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Post by pablo on Dec 28, 2015 16:30:09 GMT -5
I'll explain this to you again. I started this game in July...went through Q-School and was placed in CC-D...as score much like yours..I think I was +87 or something like that. Out of Q-School...I was you...well...I eventually figured out after a couple of weeks the problem was me and not the game or the player's around me. You haven't quite reached that point yet I don't think. I played 3 tournaments in CC-D and was quickly demoted to CC-E. Look at my career stats..the story tells itself. I hung around in CC-E for 6 or 7 tournaments but I still didn't belong...I sucked at the game and I knew it. I hit rock bottom...I was on my way to CC-Z..I thought people were straight lining..sand bagging...cheating...everything you mention..then I realized..."nope...Jim..you just suck". That was when I started adding some friends on Steam..and following their ghost's and playing side by side with them and really paying attention to the game. You have to improve..and to do that you have to completely hit rock bottom and get that kick in the ass wake up call. You can do it and realize it's you or you can continue to blame everyone,the game,the system and the scoring. Your call. The initial evaluation system is too lax. It should be harder. If you shoot +83, you have no business being put in D Class, There, actually, is business wag. Today I played a course, don't remember which one it was. One of the ghost balls shot like 105, which is +33, and my score was 69 or so. It was an easy course. That person, in Q-school might go easily out of the standings, around +7 for the108 holes. That guy, if wants, is welcome in the tours, and that guy would go to CC-Z. And who cares where you been placed, that solves nothing, it happened a few months ago. This business does not pay your bills. Simply have fun, and if you don't have fun, it's easy, stop playing tourneys. Hit the course when you feel like doing it, play with pals online to make a laugh, and if you recover the will to compete (well, in fact we don't really compete, no one lives of this), play tourneys again, but man, don't try to be the best from one day to another, it won't happen.
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Post by csabo17 on Dec 28, 2015 16:49:31 GMT -5
I think wagtunes is looking for a place that hes gonna be competing for a win every week. Thats not gonna happen. Maybe set more realistic goals every week. Practice, practice, practice. Then find some streams/threads and practice more. Doesnt matter where you or anyone else is placed after q school. Eventually the cream rises to the top, and everyone settles into the tier they are gonna be in until they practice practice practice and get better.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 28, 2015 16:56:41 GMT -5
Well, I can see that I've overstayed my welcome here so I'm going to leave the boards as far as posting any longer. I'll come by to see what the courses are should I decide to continue playing the tour.
As for the person who said I offered no solutions, here is my solution.
Anybody who shoots +83 for 6 rounds has no business being in D Class. Make the requirements for the classes harder. Judging by the scores I'm seeing in the various classes (yes, I do check out all the leaderboards) these are my suggestions.
A Class - Must break par for the tourney. As far as who ends up in PGA or Web or whatever for many strokes under par, I'm not concerned with that. I'm just talking about A - Z Class.
B Class - No worse than 12 over par for the tourney.
C Class - No worse than 18 over par for the tourney.
D Class - No worse than 24 over par for the tourney.
E Class - No worse than 36 over par for the tourney.
Z Class - Everybody worse than 36 over par.
This is based off of my observations of the weekly scores for all the classes.
Z Class will no doubt be the biggest, but as these people get so much better so fast, they will quickly move up. I think this is better than people moving down after qualifying too high.
And with that, I bid you all farewell from these boards.
And yes, I am a man of my word so this WILL be my last post.
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Post by Doyley on Dec 28, 2015 17:20:21 GMT -5
I'll explain this to you again. I started this game in July...went through Q-School and was placed in CC-D...as score much like yours..I think I was +87 or something like that. Out of Q-School...I was you...well...I eventually figured out after a couple of weeks the problem was me and not the game or the player's around me. You haven't quite reached that point yet I don't think. I played 3 tournaments in CC-D and was quickly demoted to CC-E. Look at my career stats..the story tells itself. I hung around in CC-E for 6 or 7 tournaments but I still didn't belong...I sucked at the game and I knew it. I hit rock bottom...I was on my way to CC-Z..I thought people were straight lining..sand bagging...cheating...everything you mention..then I realized..."nope...Jim..you just suck". That was when I started adding some friends on Steam..and following their ghost's and playing side by side with them and really paying attention to the game. You have to improve..and to do that you have to completely hit rock bottom and get that kick in the ass wake up call. You can do it and realize it's you or you can continue to blame everyone,the game,the system and the scoring. Your call. Your making my point for me. You should have started in Z Class too. You had no business being put in D Class with scores that bad. I'm not complaining because I'm bad at this game and deserve to be in Z Class. I know I'm bad at this game. I know I deserve to be in Z Class. What I'm saying is I should have been in Z Class ALL ALONG. Why is this so hard to understand? The initial evaluation system is too lax. It should be harder. If you shoot +83, you have no business being put in D Class, And yes, I saw your score on this course as you were one of the ghost players. I blew you and everybody else out of the water today playing that course again. So how is it I'm actually getting worse in the rankings? Had I been put in Z Class to begin with, this thread would not exist. The system has a problem with initial evaluation that needs to be addressed. Nobody starts in Z class. To get there you have to be demoted from CC-E. It's to protect it from people sandbagging. So the worst you could do was CC-E. You managed 1 flight up. You are now joining people that have played the game a long time and have improved (as you have) but not to the point they can get an exemption and move up. So you play and get demoted to the flight that suits your current skill level. The longer the game is out the better the qualify of golfers there are and the flights as a whole improve in skill. We're not going to dump everyone that shoots over par in CC-E out of Q-School. So where you were put is where everyone else that shot a similar score was put out of Q-School when they finished. It's not surprising you are working your way down to CC-Z as the entire tour's skill level has increased every month the game is out. It's up to you to figure out where best to shave strokes off your game. In the meantime the system will slowly sort you into the proper flight - enjoy the points on your way down since you get less and less as you move down the flights. Eventually you'll level out and start working your way back up.
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Post by ABU_Bear on Dec 28, 2015 17:21:29 GMT -5
Well, I can see that I've overstayed my welcome here so I'm going to leave the boards as far as posting any longer. I'll come by to see what the courses are should I decide to continue playing the tour. As for the person who said I offered no solutions, here is my solution. Anybody who shoots +83 for 6 rounds has no business being in D Class. Make the requirements for the classes harder. Judging by the scores I'm seeing in the various classes (yes, I do check out all the leaderboards) these are my suggestions. A Class - Must break par for the tourney. As far as who ends up in PGA or Web or whatever for many strokes under par, I'm not concerned with that. I'm just talking about A - Z Class. B Class - No worse than 12 over par for the tourney. C Class - No worse than 18 over par for the tourney. D Class - No worse than 24 over par for the tourney. E Class - No worse than 36 over par for the tourney. Z Class - Everybody worse than 36 over par. This is based off of my observations of the weekly scores for all the classes. Z Class will no doubt be the biggest, but as these people get so much better so fast, they will quickly move up. I think this is better than people moving down after qualifying too high. And with that, I bid you all farewell from these boards. And yes, I am a man of my word so this WILL be my last post. You'll be back
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Post by pablo on Dec 28, 2015 17:27:15 GMT -5
Well, I can see that I've overstayed my welcome here so I'm going to leave the boards as far as posting any longer. I'll come by to see what the courses are should I decide to continue playing the tour. As for the person who said I offered no solutions, here is my solution. Anybody who shoots +83 for 6 rounds has no business being in D Class. Make the requirements for the classes harder. Judging by the scores I'm seeing in the various classes (yes, I do check out all the leaderboards) these are my suggestions. A Class - Must break par for the tourney. As far as who ends up in PGA or Web or whatever for many strokes under par, I'm not concerned with that. I'm just talking about A - Z Class. B Class - No worse than 12 over par for the tourney. C Class - No worse than 18 over par for the tourney. D Class - No worse than 24 over par for the tourney. E Class - No worse than 36 over par for the tourney. Z Class - Everybody worse than 36 over par. This is based off of my observations of the weekly scores for all the classes. Z Class will no doubt be the biggest, but as these people get so much better so fast, they will quickly move up. I think this is better than people moving down after qualifying too high. And with that, I bid you all farewell from these boards. And yes, I am a man of my word so this WILL be my last post. I will speak only for myself. You are more than welcome here Wag, but you're not right saying that the problem is the Q-School, and the Q-School has its flaws, for sure, but it's a filter. Each one of us begins his career wherever it is. The staff sets the rules. From that point you are the one who has to take care of improving. But once you submit the scores for the Q-School, it means nothing. Or even less than nothing. But just think for a minute, is your game improving enough? That's what this stuff is all about, improving. The top players have improved. The medium players have improved. A vast majority of players have improved. None of them has improved because of the Q-School. The guys who improve more slowly don't improve slowly because of the Q-School. That's a pretext. No one likes to get demoted, but that's what we are facing. ************EDIT*************** I honestly hope to keep seeing you around here Wag. We need critic voices for sure, and that criticism is what makes you valuable. But in this point, I think you're mistaken
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Post by mikenym84 on Dec 28, 2015 18:22:57 GMT -5
Wagtunes described my initial couple weeks at tgc. Like him I shot in the 80s my first q school and was surprised and delighted that I ended up in CC D. Thinking I was going to woop ass I quickly received a hard dose of reality, this game is hard. I stuck around for a handful of tourneys placing mid to back of the pack but eventually fell to E then to Z. In fact I was so frustrated I took a week off. But you know what happened? I reminded myself that it's just a game. A GAME. If it was ruining my week it wasn't worth it. Came back the next week and did so well, I think I shot a -22 for the tourney. The problem I think with new players is that you place so much pressure on yourself and you end up not having fun. I got bumped to E automatically and honestly it's where I belong. You have to start on the first tee and remind yourself that at the end of the round you tried your best and had fun doing it. That's what this site and the game is all about. Sure I still hit a shot and ask myself wtf just happened there? Just put on the big boy pants and keep rolling (no pun intended). If the game is going to ruin your mood then I would tell you to not take it so seriously. It's not real life, it's TGC baby. You guys can use that if you want haha. Hope everyone had a good holiday!
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Post by mrooola on Dec 29, 2015 8:27:47 GMT -5
And with that, I bid you all farewell from these boards. And yes, I am a man of my word so this WILL be my last post. I'll quote you so that I know you will at least be notified of my response when and/or if you return. For some reason you ignore my replies anyway so... Doyley & @crazycannuck1985 I'm tagging you guys here so that you will see the post and delete it should you deem it to harsh. I should probably not post it and yes, if my gut tells me so then I should probably go with that feeling. It's like laying up on a reachable par 5. Sometimes you just can't help it. I'm going to write something to you wag that is very uncharacteristic of me. I normally don't criticise ones person but seriously dude. The last couple of weeks you have been whining and moaning all over the boards and this community has always done what it can to help. People you don't know have gone above and beyond giving detailed hints and tips, creating videos and offering personal assistance. You have openly criticized designers and courses be it for setups, esthetics or plain fun factor. You don't have to like a course and I believe most if not all designers want both motivational and developmental feedback but blaintently just calling a course autogenned is neither. It's simply rude. Adding the random "I mean no disrespect" or the odd LOL does not help you or anyone else who use these form of methods. It's simply not how it works. Those kinds of statements only work when you actually include something constructive. None of this happened in this thread, but even here when people explain why they think you are wrong and explaining to you how the process is set up, you somehow try to paint yourself out as a victim. Claiming you out stayed your welcome. Not so. People are just stating how wrong you are because they are fed up. Get a grip man. You can't seriously think that you can voice any opinion and not expect a reaction from those involved one way or another. The system is not perfect. I think everyone can agree there, but it works. It's also continously being worked on. Suck it up. Running away stating you are a man of your word only tells me you're not a man at all. The guys who run TGCTours do this in their free time. To add an experience for each and everyone of us. They get nothing in terms of payment for this. I think someone like Doyley at least deserves a response. You are always welcome here and you are a valued member of this community in my opinion. You are active and vocal. We need that. You just need to listen to what people say to you when you ventilate frustration as well. You can't continue to only see things your way. If you praise your logical mind then perhaps you should see the logic behind so many people voicing a different opinion than your own and perhaps admit you might be wrong on occasion. I feel your frustration however, I really do, but we have come to a point where I for one no longer care. I was put in CC-B after q-school. I was no where near any leader boards. I made a long post about it. Hanging around in no man's land. Not to complain but to vent some frustration. To get someone to notice the problems of those who were never seen or heard. I was stating that I had no business in CC-B. Guess what. I improved and suddenly I'm playing on the Web tour. If I had been placed in CC D or CC-E, a flight more suited for my play I would have been one of those "Sandbaggers" who miraculously started shooting -40 events. You've mentioned that you run a business and I wish you well, but I also hope you are self employed and don't have employees. If you do and manage those in a similar manner as you project yourself here... Well then you probably won't be a popular employer... Take care man and if you think I'm an idiot for writing this, please feel free to express it. Take whatever you want from this. All I hope and ask is that you at least treat the people who run this and it's community with a little respect and have the courtesy of at least letting them know you actually read what they post in reply to you.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 29, 2015 8:48:48 GMT -5
And with that, I bid you all farewell from these boards. And yes, I am a man of my word so this WILL be my last post. I'll quote you so that I know you will at least be notified of my response when and/or if you return. For some reason you ignore my replies anyway so... Doyley & @crazycannuck1985 I'm tagging you guys here so that you will see the post and delete it should you deem it to harsh. I should probably not post it and yes, if my gut tells me so then I should probably go with that feeling. It's like laying up on a reachable par 5. Sometimes you just can't help it. I'm going to write something to you wag that is very uncharacteristic of me. I normally don't criticise ones person but seriously dude. The last couple of weeks you have been whining and moaning all over the boards and this community has always done what it can to help. People you don't know have gone above and beyond giving detailed hints and tips, creating videos and offering personal assistance. You have openly criticized designers and courses be it for setups, esthetics or plain fun factor. You don't have to like a course and I believe most if not all designers want both motivational and developmental feedback but blaintently just calling a course autogenned is neither. It's simply rude. Adding the random "I mean no disrespect" or the odd LOL does not help you or anyone else who use these form of methods. It's simply not how it works. Those kinds of statements only work when you actually include something constructive. None of this happened in this thread, but even here when people explain why they think you are wrong and explaining to you how the process is set up, you somehow try to paint yourself out as a victim. Claiming you out stayed your welcome. Not so. People are just stating how wrong you are because they are fed up. Get a grip man. You can't seriously think that you can voice any opinion and not expect a reaction from those involved one way or another. The system is not perfect. I think everyone can agree there, but it works. It's also continously being worked on. Suck it up. Running away stating you are a man of your word only tells me you're not a man at all. The guys who run TGCTours do this in their free time. To add an experience for each and everyone of us. They get nothing in terms of payment for this. I think someone like Doyley at least deserves a response. You are always welcome here and you are a valued member of this community in my opinion. You are active and vocal. We need that. You just need to listen to what people say to you when you ventilate frustration as well. You can't continue to only see things your way. If you praise your logical mind then perhaps you should see the logic behind so many people voicing a different opinion than your own and perhaps admit you might be wrong on occasion. I feel your frustration however, I really do, but we have come to a point where I for one no longer care. I was put in CC-B after q-school. I was no where near any leader boards. I made a long post about it. Hanging around in no man's land. Not to complain but to vent some frustration. To get someone to notice the problems of those who were never seen or heard. I was stating that I had no business in CC-B. Guess what. I improved and suddenly I'm playing on the Web tour. If I had been placed in CC D or CC-E, a flight more suited for my play I would have been one of those "Sandbaggers" who miraculously started shooting -40 events. You've mentioned that you run a business and I wish you well, but I also hope you are self employed and don't have employees. If you do and manage those in a similar manner as you project yourself here... Well then you probably won't be a popular employer... Take care man and if you think I'm an idiot for writing this, please feel free to express it. Take whatever you want from this. All I hope and ask is that you at least treat the people who run this and it's community with a little respect and have the courtesy of at least letting them know you actually read what they post in reply to you. I wasn't going to reply but because you took the time out to write this, I felt it would be rude of me not to. You are right. I've been out of line. I've let my frustrations with this game, in a competitive setting, get to me. This is very uncharacteristic of me. As a player of Magic The Gathering for over 20 years who almost NEVER wins and doesn't care because he just loves playing so much, I honestly don't know why I let this game frustrate me so. So I apologize to you and everybody else. I will go back to simply working on my game and then whatever happens, happens. It's just a game as others have said. I do work alone and business for the past couple of years has been bad, so maybe that has something to do with it. But no excuses. I was out of line. End of story. I'm going to finish the test Q School and report my scores. I hope the data helps improve Q School placement. Ironically, in my 3 rounds so far I've shot under par in each one. Don't understand how. Doesn't matter. I'll figure this out eventually or not. Again, it's just a game. Again, my apologies but I still think it's best I keep away from the forums unless absolutely necessary. This place, as well as any other forum, can be a real time suck, especially when the community is so great as you guys have been. Anyway, let me go finish the last 3 rounds and report my scores in the appropriate thread. Thank you for putting me in my place. I needed that.
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Post by SmilingGoats on Dec 29, 2015 8:50:52 GMT -5
Q-School Cut Lines 10 under and better = Choice of PGA or Euro Tour (you will select this after submitting your Round 6 score) 5 over to 9 under = Web.com Tour card 24 over to 6 over = Challenge Circuit Flight A card 39 over to 25 over = Challenge Circuit Flight B card 59 over to 40 over = Challenge Circuit Flight C card 99 over to 60 over = Challenge Circuit Flight D card 100 over and higher = Challenge Circuit Flight E card
To be clear to all, those are the ranges that are listed in the rules and card assignment is automated based on those ranges. There is no human element of evaluation.
It was stated that you expected to be placed in CC-Z, when in fact, you should not have had any such expectation since those ranges are clearly posted in our rules. Understand that we get far more people suggesting that new members are placed too low than we do suggesting that they were placed too high, so your assessment of the situation is very much personal to you. Perhaps a better understanding of the process will help clear up for you why you were placed as you were.
At the end of the day, the entire CC system is designed to move people up and down so they are playing with people of similar skill level based on recent performances. The only requirement is that you have patience and do your best, and hopefully enjoy yourself along the way.
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Post by mrooola on Dec 29, 2015 8:52:33 GMT -5
Big of you wagtunes. Right there you grew immensely in my mind. Keep plugging and I'll see you around on the forums!
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