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Post by mcbogga on Oct 27, 2015 11:47:08 GMT -5
We are all playing the same course, in the same conditions. That is the very definition of fair I promise you this much.. you will never see this kind of crap course played on any PGA scheduled tournament so your comment is about null and daaa Have you watched any US Opens? Some ridonculus pins there most years. And that's one of the few tourneys that the USGA sets up themselves... And, this is a video game where variance is magnitudes smaller than the real thing, so to get the same feel it has to be extreme in real world terms. Cuyahoga, in my opinion, does feel like a though tournament set up. One of those that let's you know if you really have game and that exposes any weakness. Almost equally deflating as IRL to go around hitting what you think is good shots just to get chewed up and spit out. I can agree with the chipping argument - run offs are better from a game perspective as getting hung up in the rough with a downhill chip is not what it should be...
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Post by Deleted on Oct 27, 2015 13:50:57 GMT -5
I think the best way to look at pin placements should be...is a golfer able to 2 putt with a 3 foot or less second putt. If the answer is yes, then it's good enough to be deemed worthy of a pin placement. The problem is that a lot of people overhit downhill putts and then moan that the pin placement was unfair.
There was a really dodgy pin placement near the end of last season where Luke Donald's 10 foot downhill birdie putt that he barely touched lipped out at a slow pace and then proceeded to move another 30-odd feet downhill. That was 'unfair' in my mind and I should imagine Luke Donald's too. He ended up missing the 30 footer back up the hill and making bogey. So sometimes a pin placement can slip through the cracks. I'm sure the designers don't want pins like these but just shrug your shoulders and get on with it as the pins are in the same position for everyone.
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Post by mcbogga on Oct 27, 2015 14:19:05 GMT -5
Canuck had one of those last season I believe.
Fully agree with your post - Os! One grid lenght is 1m. This means that if a putt comes to rest on the second line behind the hole it's 1.5 meters (about 5 feet) from the hole. I think this is a pretty common leave from mid distance in game and pretty much a tap in. IRL it's really overhit and putting that aggressively is a sure way to make lots of bogeys and go out of contention...
Maybe time to start placing more pins to mimic this in game?
I tried to make Tobo Championship with a more realistic approach and putting challenge in mind.
Cuyahoga may have greens that are too small and would have been maybe better off with the same size of "effective" green but a larger green areas producing very difficult putts or acting as run offs to give longer chips/putts...
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Post by csugolfer60 on Oct 27, 2015 14:23:48 GMT -5
I think the best way to look at pin placements should be...is a golfer able to 2 putt with a 3 foot or less second putt. If the answer is yes, then it's good enough to be deemed worthy of a pin placement. The problem is that a lot of people overhit downhill putts and then moan that the pin placement was unfair. There was a really dodgy pin placement near the end of last season where Luke Donald's 10 foot downhill birdie putt that he barely touched lipped out at a slow pace and then proceeded to move another 30-odd feet downhill. That was 'unfair' in my mind and I should imagine Luke Donald's too. He ended up missing the 30 footer back up the hill and making bogey. So sometimes a pin placement can slip through the cracks. I'm sure the designers don't want pins like these but just shrug your shoulders and get on with it as the pins are in the same position for everyone. When I was talking with Doyley about pins for Cuyahoga (as well as TGC Stadium), I told him I basically try to follow a couple guidelines when it comes to making pins- 1.) Is the area (about minimum 3 feet) around the hole in "green grids", meaning the ball will stop on it. Yellow grids basically means gravity will not let it come to rest. 2.) There will always be a preferred side of the hole, whether it is from tucking a pin to the side of the green or the slopes around the pin suggest keeping it below the hole on one side. If every side is easy to putt from, it eliminates any strategy from it. 3.) If you play aggressively at a pin, you will need some luck to get very close on an approach. Meaning, it is always a "percentage" play to play away from the pin and into the fat of the green. However, if you execute a dangerous shot, and get a little lucky, then you will definitely get rewarded. 4.) In real life, keeping the pin about 12 feet from the edge of the green is a usual "tucked pin", with usual variations. In order for that shot to have the same "perceived" value in the game, it needs to be about a quarter of that i.e. 3 or 4 feet, because the players' accuracy is that much tighter. Bascially, if every pin was holdable with a straight approach shot, and every pin was easily puttable from all sides, it wouldn't challenge the player strategically, and players who play smartly and safely are not being rewarded.
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Post by mcbogga on Oct 27, 2015 14:55:32 GMT -5
Only issue with tucking pins so close to the edge is that the fringe, fairway and rough is too "sticky" and it's far too easy to recover from short siding yourself. Unfortunately.
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Post by MLT24 on Oct 27, 2015 15:16:36 GMT -5
Well I haven't played yet or even seen the course, but man it is starting to sound very scary, lol. I played college golf and have watched the Pro's on TV for the last 49 years. And there are occasions that the only play they have is to catch some fringe or light rough beside green and that was better than hitting the middle of the green. Now to have that on every hole is not the norm, but like NCFCRulz said above, we have to dial the toughness up a touch because we play much better in this game that real life. As long as the greens are not ROCK, CONCRETE HARD, I am ok with most anything.
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Post by jtcurrent on Oct 27, 2015 15:49:52 GMT -5
Here's my 2 cents...probably worth half that: I too can understand the argument against missing the green intentionally to have a makeable chip...just a glitch in an otherwise AWESOME game! However, I got stuck on an unintentional miss and had a tough 12 foot putt from the opposite fringe as a consequence of missing the chip, so things happen in golf and in life. As a postscript...I made it. I'll just never understand the mentality that "this is tough so it's unfair". Fight through it and the satisfaction is unreal and it's why you fight! Some guys are simply better than others, but the only reasonable response in my way of thinking is this: They're doing something better than I am and I'm going to figure it out and be as good as I can be! To complain of unfairness is akin to giving up and revealing your own weakness...something you'll not catch me doing! Anyhow, great course selection but you'll never get everyone liking everything!
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Post by Brighttail on Oct 27, 2015 16:38:41 GMT -5
Perhaps one of the answers to tucked pins and people aiming for the rough is to tuck the pin and to the side of the pin and behind it, is no rough, it is short fairway with a little hill so you go into a collection area. Given the choice to go for the pin and have to play a flop/loft shot or putting from 20-30 feet from the center of the green, I'd choose the latter. Leaving rough before the pin would be fine to allow players to try and bounce up.
Designers use rough as a penalty but when it comes to it around the green, it is actually beneficial. So if designers or people want to stop people from aiming for the rough on tucked pins, easy, take away the rough. Many PGA courses have done this, mowed down the grass around the green for this very purpose.
Just a thought.
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Post by blackaces13 on Oct 27, 2015 16:47:49 GMT -5
They should add some more of the much maligned squirt to chips. #YesAllChips
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Post by Doyley on Oct 27, 2015 16:57:45 GMT -5
They should add some more of the much maligned squirt to chips. #YesAllChips Yea, I'd agree on this too - about half a cup on either side would be plenty to cause enough lipouts and near misses to keep it from being too easy. Or just have the shots be affected my miss hits much more severely. ie, even the slightest miss left/right from a straight line would send it off line slightly.
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Post by mcbogga on Oct 27, 2015 17:07:32 GMT -5
Great ideas with collection areas and the need for more variation for chips. Not random though.
Same with putting really. Sending the ball straight enough to consistently sink anything outside 8feet should be non-trivial and same principle applies to chipping.
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Post by boomboom on Oct 27, 2015 17:34:08 GMT -5
They should add some more of the much maligned squirt to chips. #YesAllChips Yea, I'd agree on this too - about half a cup on either side would be plenty to cause enough lipouts and near misses to keep it from being too easy. Or just have the shots be affected my miss hits much more severely. ie, even the slightest miss left/right from a straight line would send it off line slightly. They don't seem to be effected by uneven lies much, that is what makes it the easiest shot. Just up that effect and it should be good.
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Post by Crazycanuck1985 on Oct 27, 2015 17:51:59 GMT -5
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Post by Tim on Oct 27, 2015 18:00:21 GMT -5
Classic ^^
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Post by Brighttail on Oct 27, 2015 18:04:58 GMT -5
At least you can't be disqualified for chipping on the green when the pin is in the sand trap!
I'm all about thinking outside the box. This game makes it where it is easier to go for a pin, roll off into the first or second cut of the rough and chip it in. In playing 3 rounds of the PGA this week, I had about 8-10 chip ins and attempted probably 2x that. It is too many. I didn't go for the center of the green because it is far easier to chip and in fact it has a much higher percentage for a birdie.
So if designers can think outside the box and do things like I suggested by taking away the rough at the edge of the green it might make things different. Imagine a green where there is fairway extending out about 10 feet from around the tight pin with rough after that. If you miss the green, then you have at least 10-15 feet that you would have to chip/flop and if you did chip, then 2/3rd of it would be fairway. You don't even need to put it below the green's elevation.
It won't stop people from using a super lofted 3iron from being able to get closer than most, but it would help with those (like me) who can pitch pretty well from within 10 feet.
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