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Post by WhatAboutAmeobi on Jul 10, 2021 17:38:07 GMT -5
I've heard nothing. They should just post it in here. Edit: I just opened up his stream, found my course playthrough... he's on the 1st tee talking about smashing someone's face in. Glad I caught him on a good day! Now he's determining if my course being tour worthy is a prank before even taking a shot, with no reason given - except that he's "not in the mood". Edit: In the chat a guy says people were arguing about the course all afternoon. To which ameobi wryly replies "shall I add my two cents" - again, before even taking a swing. So.... I'm ready for the least disgruntled, most unbiased review ever! His first problem is a round bunker "it's just a circle." Guess they should all be crazy shapes which appears to be all the rage. I'll watch the rest but can't give much credence to such grumpy, purposeful nitpicking. His buddy says the course makes him "physically ill" - again, we're on the first hole and the main gripe is a circular bunker. "Something is amiss" he says. Yea.... something is amiss alright. At times he hits a crap tee shot (he's using a new controller which he says he needs to calibrate) and then complains about the approach. This is absolutely shameful reviewing and it being referenced is just insulting. Just so grumpy and so many times trying to complain when he struggles to find something complain about. It almost bothers him when he can't complain. There are some things that could be better on the course for sure, but the way the streamer handled it was just rude and condescending. This review was done with an agenda in mind. I guess I should just be glad that he did a horrible job of hiding it. The streamer and some of the participants should be ashamed. Upon reflection, what would I change? Maybe move 2-3 trees. Maybe improve a few bunkers. That's about it. What would I change based on the recommendations of others? Probably more than that, but I can't lend much credence to this grumpy hack job. Jimbo, I went back and watched the play through again because sometimes when I'm live, I give opinions that I don't agree with later. All I'm going to say is that I stand by my play through. If you watch the whole thing, you'll see me apologize to you multiple times because I didn't think the process was fair to you and "reviewing" your course comparing it to tour worthy also was not fair. A mistake was made (in my opinion) and you got caught up in something that you shouldn't have. The only reason that the idea of a prank came up is that the boys played a beauty prank on me a month or two ago and I'm forever suspicious of it from now on.
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Post by mattyfromcanada on Jul 10, 2021 17:49:50 GMT -5
Surfacing - Fairway transitions into greens especially were often quite rough and amateur. Bunkers appeared to just be place directly into fairway surfaces and often times appeared to be stock shapes. Sculpting - Bunkers were often times barely sculpted, or other times poorly sculpted. A lot of the fairways were quite flat (which isn't always an issue) but the area around the play surfaced was quite rough and abrupt, it just didn't flow well together. Hole Layouts - Some very awkward ones, some straight up bad ones, and a few okish ones. Planting - Not much planting done on the course and what was planted didn't look great and was often oversized. Need a lot more care put into this area. Below are some pictures from the course which demonstrate many of these points. To be 100% honest (not just because you're being difficult right now) had I reviewed this course there's a good chance I wouldn't have even approved it. To quote a certain TGC philosopher (and this part IS because you're being difficult) "Just make better courses."
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Post by Deleted on Jul 10, 2021 18:43:32 GMT -5
Wow. You guys get the rating wrong based upon your reviews. You post it before verifying. You don't communicate the error. You misconstrue what part of all of this actually bothered me. You respond without watching the stream - which is what bothered me. You accuse me of being difficult. And then post your criticism. Such a welcoming place! Is this some kind of a seminar on how not to handle PR. What next? Posts that disappear after being visible for a few minutes is a new one I haven't seen before. A mod with the power move on a video game website. Just glad it's not me. So glad it's not me.
Have a good one everybody.
I'm out for good.
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Post by notaburneracct on Jul 10, 2021 19:26:10 GMT -5
Lovely course. Especially love the easy, laid back nature of the strategy. Too often designers try to make you think. What am I even doing, taking the SAT's? Had a cheerful ruggedness about it. Like, anyone can sculpt a bunker, or straighten a transition, but why bother? Anyway, you do you, man.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 11, 2021 2:08:41 GMT -5
Oh........
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Post by cd06 on Jul 11, 2021 3:29:10 GMT -5
Well that was... strange...
But I mean, if people can't take honest, constructive and reliable feedback, I don't know what to say anymore.
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Post by axelvonfersen on Jul 11, 2021 4:47:07 GMT -5
Namaste, people.
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Post by WhatAboutAmeobi on Jul 11, 2021 6:11:43 GMT -5
It's really unfortunate that Jimbo has deleted his account over this, but I get it. He got dragged into something that shouldn't have had anything to do with him and his course got torn apart over it. I'll own my part of that - I was super harsh in my play through because I couldn't believe anyone would play that course and think it tour worthy.
I'm going to make a video later on another course that shouldn't have been TW (in my opinion) and the reasons why (I'm not going to name the course or the designer). On a certain podcast, Q mentioned that when reviewing a course and considering TW status for it, you need to think about people wanting to play that course 4 times, to all 4 pins, in different conditions, etc. I think that's a great way to think when deciding if a course should be TW and I hope that going forward, all reviewers keep that in mind so that we can avoid situations like this.
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Post by WhatAboutAmeobi on Jul 11, 2021 8:45:42 GMT -5
OK, here's the video. If this should be moved somewhere else, let me know, but my hope is to have an open and respectful discussion about the topic of tour worthy vs approved.
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Post by HoneyBadgerHacker on Jul 11, 2021 12:15:02 GMT -5
I've heard nothing. They should just post it in here. Edit: I just opened up his stream, found my course playthrough... he's on the 1st tee talking about smashing someone's face in. Glad I caught him on a good day! Now he's determining if my course being tour worthy is a prank before even taking a shot, with no reason given - except that he's "not in the mood". Edit: In the chat a guy says people were arguing about the course all afternoon. To which ameobi wryly replies "shall I add my two cents" - again, before even taking a swing. So.... I'm ready for the least disgruntled, most unbiased review ever! His first problem is a round bunker "it's just a circle." Guess they should all be crazy shapes which appears to be all the rage. I'll watch the rest but can't give much credence to such grumpy, purposeful nitpicking. His buddy says the course makes him "physically ill" - again, we're on the first hole and the main gripe is a circular bunker. "Something is amiss" he says. Yea.... something is amiss alright. At times he hits a crap tee shot (he's using a new controller which he says he needs to calibrate) and then complains about the approach. This is absolutely shameful reviewing and it being referenced is just insulting. Just so grumpy and so many times trying to complain when he struggles to find something complain about. It almost bothers him when he can't complain. There are some things that could be better on the course for sure, but the way the streamer handled it was just rude and condescending. This review was done with an agenda in mind. I guess I should just be glad that he did a horrible job of hiding it. The streamer and some of the participants should be ashamed. Upon reflection, what would I change? Maybe move 2-3 trees. Maybe improve a few bunkers. That's about it. What would I change based on the recommendations of others? Probably more than that, but I can't lend much credence to this grumpy hack job. Jimbo, I went back and watched the play through again because sometimes when I'm live, I give opinions that I don't agree with later. All I'm going to say is that I stand by my play through. If you watch the whole thing, you'll see me apologize to you multiple times because I didn't think the process was fair to you and "reviewing" your course comparing it to tour worthy also was not fair. A mistake was made (in my opinion) and you got caught up in something that you shouldn't have. The only reason that the idea of a prank came up is that the boys played a beauty prank on me a month or two ago and I'm forever suspicious of it from now on. Can’t help but think how the joke they played on you and how this situation reminds me of the scene in Days of Thunder.
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Post by trailducker on Jul 11, 2021 19:36:53 GMT -5
I caught up on the stream to see what the hub bub was and yes without the context of the Gerald Epee I would be confused what the troll talk is. But after the first hole when they realize it's not Wayne is really fair with his critique and cators to the designer with a fair amoutn of caviots to be understaning and respectful.
As someone in a design field IRL for my career, you have to know how to take criticism as a form learning to get better. There is an issue of people coming in without that knowledge and expecting everyone to like their stuff and think it's great. But if you are submitting your work to a judging platform you are going to get critiqued. Another thing as someone designing you have to do is know people will have diferent opinions and learn to listen to those opinions diessect them and decide which ones to take to heart and which ones to forget (Wayne gets almost ill when playing a geometric course, if I make one and he gets pissy about it I choose to ignore those comments because that's all his personal preference). If someone has a super negative reaction take a moment and listen to what gives them it and why, maybe it's completely their opinion and you can ignore it, or maybe there is a viable reason and it's something you can choose to try and do better next time. That's up to YOU as the designer, NOT the person reviewing.
Basically we can't change who we are as a community that critiques courses designed because people don't know how to take critiques. That's on them to learn that or stop submitting. That may sound elitest to some but it's just how life is. A world without personal growth and quality control is not a world I want to be in.
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Post by sroel908 on Jul 11, 2021 20:00:44 GMT -5
I don't really know all that went on with this, other than it sounds like mistakes were made in the process of reviewing a course for Tour Worthy status, and there was a play on stream and it all went south from there.
I will say, I think sometimes we all (designers, reviewers, streamers, tour players, etc.) take things here way too seriously. From getting feelings hurt because our course was "approved", not "Tour Worthy", to walls of text about design and intentional blindness, to how upset we get about a silly video game's swing mechanics, sometimes we need to all step back and remember this is supposed to be fun. It's all surrounding a video game version of a niche hobby.
We need to remember that mistakes happen, that there are actual people designing these courses - not just avatars and screen names, and the reviewers, rangers, and other TGCT personnel are volunteering their time to take on these tasks.
I know I also need to take my own words into consideration, as sometimes I get carried away too. Being passionate is a great thing. But being understanding and respectful is good, too.
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Post by blueblood1995 on Jul 11, 2021 20:40:13 GMT -5
I don't really know all that went on with this, other than it sounds like mistakes were made in the process of reviewing a course for Tour Worthy status, and there was a play on stream and it all went south from there. I will say, I think sometimes we all (designers, reviewers, streamers, tour players, etc.) take things here way too seriously. From getting feelings hurt because our course was "approved", not "Tour Worthy", to walls of text about design and intentional blindness, to how upset we get about a silly video game's swing mechanics, sometimes we need to all step back and remember this is supposed to be fun. It's all surrounding a video game version of a niche hobby. We need to remember that mistakes happen, that there are actual people designing these courses - not just avatars and screen names, and the reviewers, rangers, and other TGCT personnel are volunteering their time to take on these tasks. I know I also need to take my own words into consideration, as sometimes I get carried away too. Being passionate is a great thing. But being understanding and respectful is good, too. Well said Steve. My mother said to me when I was younger that... "It's nice to be important, but important to be nice!"
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Post by CLEANboxhero on Jul 11, 2021 22:34:32 GMT -5
I don't really know all that went on with this, other than it sounds like mistakes were made in the process of reviewing a course for Tour Worthy status, and there was a play on stream and it all went south from there. I will say, I think sometimes we all (designers, reviewers, streamers, tour players, etc.) take things here way too seriously. From getting feelings hurt because our course was "approved", not "Tour Worthy", to walls of text about design and intentional blindness, to how upset we get about a silly video game's swing mechanics, sometimes we need to all step back and remember this is supposed to be fun. It's all surrounding a video game version of a niche hobby. We need to remember that mistakes happen, that there are actual people designing these courses - not just avatars and screen names, and the reviewers, rangers, and other TGCT personnel are volunteering their time to take on these tasks. I know I also need to take my own words into consideration, as sometimes I get carried away too. Being passionate is a great thing. But being understanding and respectful is good, too. Awfully insightful. IMO (I use cool shorthand now) it doesn't seem like many people take this game way too seriously at all though. Anyhow. All I know is nothing disrespectful would ever be said on that particular stream. Who would want to be controversial for more views anyhow? I think we can all learn from this. It's a shame he deleted his account. I was certainly looking forward to what he did next. Cheers
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Post by Q on Jul 11, 2021 23:04:56 GMT -5
I think we can all learn from this. It's a shame he deleted his account. I was certainly looking forward to what he did next. Cheers Still waiting on the next Mr Clean course, hopefully you still enjoy designing as I had a feeling you're next one was going to be a banger.
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