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Post by mde8965 on Oct 21, 2016 10:54:07 GMT -5
This question is for the advanced, "elite" PGA or otherwise strong players... Let me know what calculations would enter your mind in lining up this shot....
I am 66yds from the pin. The greens are firm (187), there is a headwind of 12mph blowing in at 7 o'clock. Lets assume the green is relatively flat on all sides of the hole for 5ft. The green is not uphill or downhill from where I am at. This kind of shot kills me because I do not understand how to compensate, distance wise, for the wind on this short club. To be clear, I am pretty good with this on longer clubs, so I don't need that info...
OK, my math says I want to land my ball at about 61-62yds to allow for roll out on the flat green surface. In order to do that, I need to compensate for wind. I look at the 12mph and since it is at 7 o'clock I covert the 12mph to roughly 9-10 direct headwind. If this were a long club, I would add roughly 18-20 yds to my calculation for distance. But since I know from experience that this is way too much compensation for my short club, I multiply the wind speed by 75% and add 7-8 yds to my distance. So using the shot shaper, I try and hit a 68-70 yard shot. And using the shot shaper I aim right roughly 2/10ths of a box.
I hit the shot. Sometimes it is relatively close to what I want and I end up 3ft from the hole for a tap in bird. Other times I watch the ball hit green a foot past the hole and roll 4 more yards for a 2 putt par and lots of rage. Other times I hit 6yds short the hole and end up with a 9ft nail biter putt. I do not know how to be consistent with this, and it is costing me too many strokes. It cannot be that hard, but yet it eludes me...
Just wondering how you stronger players handle this situation. Not talking in "clicks" if possible since I do not understand that...
And one other spin on this. How would your math change if you were 86 yards from the pin instead of 66 (all else being equal), or 96, or 116...
And I assume that for short clubs in this situation, every 3ft of elevation or downhill the green is from the fairway where I a taking the shot is still a 1yd compensation?
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Post by digsb on Oct 21, 2016 12:39:50 GMT -5
You need no help Michael....and I'm definitely not an elite player
anyway, I love these shots now. 1st rule of using the pitch shot = ignore the head/tailwind (a 5mph equals 1yard if that, to be honest). So I would get the trusty 55 yard pitch and using the shot shaper, move it DOWN so you have 102% ( 1click -sorry) this should make the 55 yard pitch travel further on a lower arc so it will roll more. It should also have no backspin. In theory this will pitch around 59/60 yards bounce again at 63 then check. But because of the firm green it will roll 1-2-3 yards depending on the greens slope leaving a putt of between 0-12 feet.
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Post by mde8965 on Oct 21, 2016 13:48:56 GMT -5
You need no help Michael....and I'm definitely not an elite player anyway, I love these shots now. 1st rule of using the pitch shot = ignore the head/tailwind (a 5mph equals 1yard if that, to be honest). So I would get the trusty 55 yard pitch and using the shot shaper, move it DOWN so you have 102% ( 1click -sorry) this should make the 55 yard pitch travel further on a lower arc so it will roll more. It should also have no backspin. In theory this will pitch around 59/60 yards bounce again at 63 then check. But because of the firm green it will roll 1-2-3 yards depending on the greens slope leaving a putt of between 0-12 feet. I typed out a reply to you and got a error when submitting.... So here is a much shorter version...
Thanks for your reply. Yes I do need help if I want to be at all competitive in PGA
De-lofting works good for me on medium greens, but too much variation in rollout on firm using that technique when the green slopes. I have had the ball bounce 5 yds in front of the pin, and roll 12 more yards off the back of the green, or to the side. But it is great on medium greens to stop the ball without it coming back to you 2 or more yards like it does using the 75yd pitch...
So was hoping to learn how to judge the wind in my scenario using the 75yd pitch and loft. For when I need to hold the green on firm. Because the real effect of the wind seems to start at that 75yd pitch shot. But I cannot figure out what the right amount of compensation should be... I have seen the charts too, but they seem very inaccurate with small clubs and especially pitch shots
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Post by jtcurrent on Oct 21, 2016 14:26:49 GMT -5
Here's my 2 cents, and worth every penny. 12 mph headwind blowing to 7 o'clock. With the PW pitch I factor headwind effect at 1 yd per 3-4 mph. So on this shot I'll assume a 70 yd distance and make sure to play for some R-L due to the wind. The wind will deaden the ball a bit even on firm greens so I'd most probably play this shot to land at 65-66 and assume a big hop then stop. Loft PW to 88% and hit the sucker. If that wind is going the other way then you need to be careful because that same chip will roll out. If the wind was at our back I'd probably hit the SW pitch just about stock or a very slight bit de-lofted. Having said all that it's the details that dictate what actually happens. My guess is guys will play this many different ways. Good luck and if you find a better way please let me know.
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Post by mde8965 on Oct 21, 2016 14:48:40 GMT -5
Here's my 2 cents, and worth every penny. 12 mph headwind blowing to 7 o'clock. With the PW pitch I factor headwind effect at 1 yd per 3-4 mph. So on this shot I'll assume a 70 yd distance and make sure to play for some R-L due to the wind. The wind will deaden the ball a bit even on firm greens so I'd most probably play this shot to land at 65-66 and assume a big hop then stop. Loft PW to 88% and hit the sucker. If that wind is going the other way then you need to be careful because that same chip will roll out. If the wind was at our back I'd probably hit the SW pitch just about stock or a very slight bit de-lofted. Having said all that it's the details that dictate what actually happens. My guess is guys will play this many different ways. Good luck and if you find a better way please let me know. Ok, this is a great post. Thanks! Makes me think of things a little differently. You see when it comes to wind, I get so in the weeds so to speak thinking on a 60-80 yard shot to a firm green....
Should I hit a normal LW (75yds) lofted a bit (green slopes away from me) Should I hit a PW pitch lofted a bit (green slopes toward me) etc....
But the winds play on these two shots (distance wise) in different ways that I cannot seem to compute on double digit wind speeds. So I play the appropriate shot but mis my landing zone due too much or too little wind distance correction.
So for the PW pitch shot (green slopes toward me), 12mph direct head wind, add 4 yds
So for the LW normal hit (green slopes away from me), 12mph direct head wind, add ? (I would add 6 - but is that too little or too much because I cannot get consistent results). Looking for what you folks would add in this scenario, forget all the other details
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Post by xraylucy on Oct 21, 2016 15:12:03 GMT -5
Here's my 2 cents, and worth every penny. 12 mph headwind blowing to 7 o'clock. With the PW pitch I factor headwind effect at 1 yd per 3-4 mph. So on this shot I'll assume a 70 yd distance and make sure to play for some R-L due to the wind. The wind will deaden the ball a bit even on firm greens so I'd most probably play this shot to land at 65-66 and assume a big hop then stop. Loft PW to 88% and hit the sucker. If that wind is going the other way then you need to be careful because that same chip will roll out. If the wind was at our back I'd probably hit the SW pitch just about stock or a very slight bit de-lofted. Having said all that it's the details that dictate what actually happens. My guess is guys will play this many different ways. Good luck and if you find a better way please let me know. Ok, this is a great post. Thanks! Makes me think of things a little differently. You see when it comes to wind, I get so in the weeds so to speak thinking on a 60-80 yard shot to a firm green....
Should I hit a normal LW (75yds) lofted a bit (green slopes away from me) Should I hit a PW pitch lofted a bit (green slopes toward me) etc....
But the winds play on these two shots (distance wise) in different ways that I cannot seem to compute on double digit wind speeds. So I play the appropriate shot but mis my landing zone due too much or too little wind distance correction.
So for the PW pitch shot (green slopes toward me), 12mph direct head wind, add 4 yds
So for the LW normal hit (green slopes away from me), 12mph direct head wind, add ? (I would add 6 - but is that too little or too much because I cannot get consistent results). Looking for what you folks would add in this scenario, forget all the other details
Try the course 'wind test'. Perfect for testing wind and carry(with any club)
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Post by mde8965 on Oct 21, 2016 16:16:21 GMT -5
xraylucy - Thanks will do. Did not know about that one.
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Post by Generic_Casual on Oct 26, 2016 3:11:40 GMT -5
Hi, old friend! Congrats on getting to PGA! I'm no guru, nor am I very good at the "Inner Hundies" on this game. IRL, however, I absolutely LOVE anything 40-90 yards out. I get confused at the wind not having a bigger effect on shorter clubs. I've almost got a representation of my IRL shot that I'd hit now. But, looking a your example this is what I'd do... PW Pitch, loft up about 1 bar. Move about 3 boxes right on green. Profit. Like I said, I'm no guru.
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Post by mde8965 on Oct 26, 2016 11:04:37 GMT -5
Hi, old friend! Congrats on getting to PGA! I'm no guru, nor am I very good at the "Inner Hundies" on this game. IRL, however, I absolutely LOVE anything 40-90 yards out. I get confused at the wind not having a bigger effect on shorter clubs. I've almost got a representation of my IRL shot that I'd hit now. But, looking a your example this is what I'd do... PW Pitch, loft up about 1 bar. Move about 3 boxes right on green. Profit. Like I said, I'm no guru. Hey man. Hadn't talked to you in a while. You know I actually took xraylucy advice in this thread and charted the distance effects from wind on the short irons using the wind test course. The results really surprised me. And it is no wonder I was as inaccurate as I was with short irons in double digit winds. I am a bunch more accurate now I feel. But I use fade/draw a lot in windy conditions, and this too has an effect on distance. No way to chart all of that. So I can still be off a couple yards.
PS...I do NOT like to use charts. I refer to them for my short iron game in winds now, but as soon as I kind of get the "wind factor" part memorized, I will no longer need them.
Let me leave you with this. There is NOT necessarily a linear relationship between the amount of yards to add or subtract and the size of the short club (LW, SW, PW, 9i). And there is a very big difference depending on normal or pitch shot...
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dysania
Weekend Golfer
Posts: 117
TGCT Name: Jamie Fluke
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Post by dysania on Oct 28, 2016 6:30:51 GMT -5
I notice that a few of the top guys that I see stream don't draw or fade unless they really have to, instead just taking the wind into account and trusting the swing. I've started doing this myself and have seen some improvements. The problem as you have identified with shot shaping in the wind is that it's hard to accurately determine what you gain or lose in distance when you draw/fade into or with the wind. I'll use it if my approach shot is into a side slope or if I feel I really need to change my angle of attack but that's usually far less of an issue at short range than it is with longer approach shots.
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Post by mde8965 on Oct 28, 2016 7:40:41 GMT -5
I notice that a few of the top guys that I see stream don't draw or fade unless they really have to, instead just taking the wind into account and trusting the swing. I've started doing this myself and have seen some improvements. The problem as you have identified with shot shaping in the wind is that it's hard to accurately determine what you gain or lose in distance when you draw/fade into or with the wind. I'll use it if my approach shot is into a side slope or if I feel I really need to change my angle of attack but that's usually far less of an issue at short range than it is with longer approach shots. Yeah I have begun messing around with not using the fade/draw on approaches too. Couple thoughts comments:
I still have not figured out how far left or right to aim depending on the wind. Say I have an 8mph side wind blowing right. I aim left what seems like a very far distance (off the green) and it is still not far enough. So the next hole, 7mph wind left, I aim about as much right as I aimed left on the previous (8mph) hole, and it ends up too much and I land about 4 yards right of target. Just have not figured it out. If there is some sort of system (like 1meter for every mph of wind) then I need to figure it out before I do this in a tournament with anything more than 4mph wind. So until then I use the shot shaping, and if into the wind, just add a couple yards to my distance calculations... But this always seems to bite me in the butt with a 10+mph cross/head wind and I need to land on top of a slope next to the hole. I come up just short and roll back down the hill...Just seems (in my head) that the shot shaping costs extra yards in these situations. I need to practice this on a huge green aiming at the stick and measuring landing spot with the grid lines..
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Post by inflames47 on Dec 1, 2016 4:35:16 GMT -5
Ok, this is a great post. Thanks! Makes me think of things a little differently. You see when it comes to wind, I get so in the weeds so to speak thinking on a 60-80 yard shot to a firm green....
Should I hit a normal LW (75yds) lofted a bit (green slopes away from me) Should I hit a PW pitch lofted a bit (green slopes toward me) etc....
But the winds play on these two shots (distance wise) in different ways that I cannot seem to compute on double digit wind speeds. So I play the appropriate shot but mis my landing zone due too much or too little wind distance correction.
So for the PW pitch shot (green slopes toward me), 12mph direct head wind, add 4 yds
So for the LW normal hit (green slopes away from me), 12mph direct head wind, add ? (I would add 6 - but is that too little or too much because I cannot get consistent results). Looking for what you folks would add in this scenario, forget all the other details
Try the course 'wind test'. Perfect for testing wind and carry(with any club) What exactly is the course *wind test* xraylucy ?
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Post by andybarrell on Dec 1, 2016 4:47:08 GMT -5
its a course where tee box is surrounded by water and about 12-15mph wind so you can just rotate your golfer and hit shots into the pond to see how much distance the wind effects each shot/club
unfortunately as there is no green you can hit it doesn't help with knowing how much to aim for each wind
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Post by xraylucy on Dec 1, 2016 5:56:43 GMT -5
Try the course 'wind test'. Perfect for testing wind and carry(with any club) What exactly is the course *wind test* xraylucy ? See andy's description above. Because on this course you're on a small island surrounded by water you can rotate 360 degrees and test the wind from every direction. It's only 1 hole (par 5) which means you can test 12 shots in 1 go. I've tested the way wind affects the carry for all clubs, 100% head and tail winds, and recorded it in a table. Use that table while playing and soon the numbers are in your head. For crosswinds I do my own calculation based on the carry table. Good luck!
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