Design Process

[jakkals]

Hi guys

Just a quick question. When designing a course, in which order do you go about it?

Do you do most of your terrain work first before hole layout or do you do course layout and sculpt the terrain as you go along?

[jakkals]

Dec 2, 2014 2:48:51 GMT -5 @ddawg said:

I don't know about how the rest go about it ... but I like to "Level" the terrain down to just above the water line.  Barren of all trees and hills ...
I like starting off with a clean canvas, next I create my own layout ... like sketching out what I want ...
I prefer the smallest settings for the greens and tee boxes ...

Once I have a track laid out to the distances I desire ...
trying to keep the lengths within accordance to USGA Par length and Yardage guide for Men
        PAR #3's up to 250 yards
        PAR #4's 251 to 470 yards
        PAR #5's 471 to 690 yards

from there, I start laying out fairways and doing initial terrain sculpting ... for each hole as I go ... I always have a plan as I go ... but never sticking to anything ... I like to let the course grow on its own ... it's a fluid process ... I use the ... "if it looks right" method ... Once I have the hole laid out I play it several times ... looking the layout over from lots of different viewpoints.

The trees and bunkers are the last bit of the process ... If the course looks and plays good barren of trees, bunkers and water, it's OK to have a few trees and ponds setup ... as to set the look you're after ... but with too much "stuff" on the course, obscures the sculpting part of the design stage (just my humble opinion).

I tend to try to keep the course looking like something that you would find on a real course ... there are a lot of those who seem to think all bunkers need to be deeply recessed in a pit.  I will tell you will not find that many courses that have deep recessed bunkers on every hole, and especially 200 yards from the green ... maybe once your within 50 yards or closer ... but fairway bunkers, rarely.

Never try to have a fairway cut roll-off into a bunker, same with greens and the fringe. they shouldn't roll off steeply into a bunker.

Think like a greens-keeper or maintenance man in-charge of mowing the different cuts of fringe and rough. If it is feasible to even mow the bank your placing that first cut of rough on ... Too many course do not take this into account and thus fall into a fantasy course category (IMHO), because, no course superintendent would hire workers to hand cut the rough with weed-trimmers, in order to cut the slopes on which some have their fairways on, or 1st cut of rough ...

If it cant be done with a mower, flatten it out so it looks like you could cut it with a riding mower.

These are my personal opinions on a good course layout ... its all in the details ... but, doesn't mean its a STANDARD, and their are many who will fight my opinions on methodological course development.  This is just my opinion, you can find others who have maybe even a better way to tackle the course development, but by all means, attempt designing your course with using minimal auto-generated fairways, bunkers and trees ... or you will end up with a course that looks like about 90% of the course published.

Take the time to CREATE your own course ... everything you build shape and place, is intended to be there, placed by you ... not a random generator ... 

enjoy your design, and chances are someone else will too ...

Hope this helps ...

Thank you very much DDawg. I find myself coming up with a good idea (in my opinion) for a hole or two in terms of layout, terrain and hazards. I normally try use generated plot of land and start terrain sculpting first to lay the foundation for the hole layout. I haven't progressed pass the first hole as I battle a little to get my vision into the virtual world so hence my question.

I am going to give the blank canvas a go and do the course layout first. This might give me some better direction.

I prefer more realistic courses to the fantasy course so your advise regarding fairways sloping into bunkers and thinking like a green keeper is much appreciated.

[Deleted]

Just in addition to what Dawg is saying I would like to add:

I kinda like the ground up way lowering then filling everything in. Did that been there done that seen that. But IMHO It looks to fake unless you really are talented.

But I'm thinking I'm starting to like the auto gen with no holes. Set the trees, the water and the hills, but no holes. Then when you pick an area for a hole, use the brush to clear generated objects for the hole layout. It gets rid of the weeds, the trees, the rocks etc...Then do the hole, sculpting, planting etc. I'm liking the look better beyond the hole itself, it looks more real to me, and far better then I could draw. The water looks more natural, the hills look more natural and the trees outside of the hole look more real from the distance and blend in nicely with what you end up creating.

I think its a taste thing, I like to stand on any given tee and say I think I've been here before, not I would like to be here, somewhere, wonder where that could be.

I absolutely fell in love with the course being used in the No grid tournament yesterday. the Bavaro. I have no idea if it was ground up or not, but I have been there before.

[Deleted]

I love this discussion. I haven't made my first course yet, but I'm looking forward to it very much. After Q School is all wrapped up I plan on spending unhealthy amounts of time in the course designer.

Some of the most fun I've had in the world of video games was designing courses in a silly little XBLA indie game called Avatar Golf. I can't wait to try my hand at designing more realistic courses in this game. Though, I do think there is some merit in creating a solid "fantasy" course as well...but that is somewhere down the road.

I think both Steve and Dawg are making some great points. In particular I like Dawg's point about seeing course design through the eyes of the grounds crew. When it comes to designing the rough and fairways on a course I think the best courses I've played in this game make it seem like these are courses that could exist in the real world and someone could actually maintain them.

I also love that Steve brings up the idea of working with the features of a plot of land that already exist. I think for my first course I plan on letting the designer generate the terrain and then I can come in and hand-build holes that take advantage of some of the "natural" land features. Of course there will be some bulldozer work done to get some of the features that I want, but I like the idea trying to find and build a great track without having a totally blank canvas to start with. I want complete control over the design of my holes, but I'll probably let the software take care of the surrounding wilderness.

[Deleted]

Dec 2, 2014 14:14:37 GMT -5 @joepunchface said:

In particular I like Dawg's point about seeing course design through the eyes of the grounds crew. When it comes to designing the rough and fairways on a course I think the best courses I've played in this game make it seem like these are courses that could exist in the real world and someone could actually maintain them.I also love that Steve brings up the idea of working with the features of a plot of land that already exist. I think for my first course I plan on letting the designer generate the terrain and then I can come in and hand-build holes that take advantage of some of the "natural" land features. Of course there will be some bulldozer work done to get some of the features that I want, but I like the idea trying to find and build a great track without having a totally blank canvas to start with. I want complete control over the design of my holes, but I'll probably let the software take care of the surrounding wilderness.

Standing on the tee of Avers I thought the very same thing, what kind of mower could handle this job?

I think there are some incredible designers here, me I'm not even in the top 100, however I believe and I wish that just any of the top 10 could look at the suggestion of rather than doze the land flat, use it. These guys and 1 gal that I know of, could be more, all build stunning holes, beautiful holes of golf, remarkable, perfect really, add the use of the land rather then the flattening and sculpting again and  I believe you have perfection.

I can only say that from a golfer perspective though, not a designer 1, as I'm not a designer like these guys are. 

[Deleted]

Here's a video of what I'm talking about, its 4 minutes.

Obviously I hope all I'm suggesting is that would then be the slate in which to build the hole from scratch.

Actually I will build a hole and show it here later.

After:

In the right hands, I see nothing wrong with this method. I freely admit, I'm not the right hands, this took less than 1 hour, it needs way more work, a better everything, but it's not just about the hole itself, it's about the views and the experience of the hole and the course itself. I imagine in the right hands a pretty nice hole, a pretty nice course and pretty nice views could be achieved beyond the hole itself.

[jakkals]

Relax guys. Everyone has their own way of doing things and what might work for one, won't work for someone else. I was just interested on how you go about designing your course. Thank you for the input so far, it is greatly appreciated.

Everyone has their own style at the end of the day. Personally for me the course and every hole must look good from the get go. Whenever I play a new course I make my mind up pretty quickly by looking at the course if I like it or not. Then comes the way the course plays. It must be a challenge but not impossible.

That's the kind of course I want to create