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Post by mcbogga on Dec 29, 2015 9:09:03 GMT -5
1. What is the name of a course that you would consider a fair challenge for the elite players and a good fit for the PGA/Euro Tour? I plan to play any courses mentioned but a brief explanation of what you feel makes it tour caliber would be helpful. 1. Harbour Pointe. By far the best competition course in the game. Not even close, only course that is even near is the one below. It will test every part of a players game over 72 holes. It requires good strategy and near perfect execution. It rewards excellent shots, it punishes mediocre ones and it does not hand out freebie pars to the merely "good". Does not provide easy up and downs and does not serve birdies easily. Also plays surprisingly well under any wind conditions
2. Conservatory Club. Also an extremely well made competition course. Has a couple holes that are more birdie holes than Harbour Pointe but nothing wrong with that. Rewards good shots to the right spot on the green and punishes blind aiming for the flag. A 10/10 course that also played great without aids on the RGT, something Harbour Pointe does not do even if Brad G shot even par TST style...
3. Bison Run Tour. Firm and Fast done well and such a solid design all through.
Will shamelessly mention my own Tobo here as well as the Friday version held up really well scoring wise without many complaints. And that being under 7000 yds... Ballylough and Belwearie should be in this discussion as well to represent links. And some of Tyler Dukes courses are really good tourney courses as well. 2. Play a round at Spectacle Island Links (Tour) and answer the questions below (please read the questions before your round as some are specific). This is not some sort of self promotion and I'm not looking for a rating or anything. It's my latest attempt at designing a course that is meant to be difficult and I'm just looking for feedback on how it plays. a) Was the course set-up fairly? Yes. b) What did you like about the set-up? Many holes where a correctly played ball would feed to the flag but only with perfect execution. Beautiful course. Plenty of sloped lies in the fairway. Pins balanced to approach shot.c) What did you dislike about the set-up?
Some holes felt similar in design. With the wide fairways driving became an afterthought in many cases. Even in the cases where there was a prefered side of the fairway the penalty of being on the wrong side was not enough. Could have benefited from being tightened up a bit and maybe a bit more varied imo.
I had issues dialing in my approaches on the front, kept over-hitting. The course did not punish me for this once as the rough at the back catched the ball and provided 10-20 yds chips that were fairly straightforward, even birdie chances. Some holes should really punish ball that go off the back. Together with the sloped greens limiting possibilities to make putts outside of 15 feet this means that good and bad shots alike will make par with the same frequency which is not ideal.
Greens and pins are too severe to be realistic in any way. Will not play well without aids due to long sweeping borderline yellow sloping and pins on severe slopes.Understand that its not intended for no aids play, so just saying. It's still a very good course. The above feedback is from the "perfect competition set-up angle".d) What did you score? e) How much wind?
About 7-10mph throughout. Has the wind been nerfed by the way? I've been over-compensating a bit today both with and without aids. A troubling development in that case as it will just make it easier. g) How did you make those birdies (putt, chip, other) One chip in on 16. Otherwise putts inside 10 feeth) Were there any holes you found too difficult? No.i) Were there any holes you found too easy? No, not really. Maybe course would benefit from a birdie/eagle driveable par four....Other comments: Thanks Scarp!
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Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
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Post by Deleted on Dec 29, 2015 9:29:22 GMT -5
The top players should be avg. 1.5 putts per hole ( -9 ) as each player has 36 shots on each green per round to play to par. At the moment the top players are avg. 1 putt per hole ( -18 ).
Until designers address this problem you will see scores in the -60 range.
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Post by mrooola on Dec 29, 2015 9:40:20 GMT -5
Following this thread with great interest.
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Post by scarpacci on Dec 29, 2015 13:55:02 GMT -5
The top players should be avg. 1.5 putts per hole ( -9 ) as each player has 36 shots on each green per round to play to par. At the moment the top players are avg. 1 putt per hole ( -18 ). Until designers address this problem you will see scores in the -60 range. Honestly, I don't see this as a designer's problem. It would require 100 yard greens with pins in the middle surrounded by giant slopes to get the putt per hole stats there. Totally unrealistic and would get me laughed out of the game. The short game is too easy and the heavy rough isn't penal enough. Players accept unrealistic gameplay but won't accept unrealistic solutions to compensate. Just trying to find a middle ground here.
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Post by smurfblade88 on Dec 29, 2015 13:56:03 GMT -5
The top players should be avg. 1.5 putts per hole ( -9 ) as each player has 36 shots on each green per round to play to par. At the moment the top players are avg. 1 putt per hole ( -18 ). Until designers address this problem you will see scores in the -60 range. Honestly, I don't see this as a designer's problem. It would require 100 yard greens with pins in the middle surrounded by giant slopes to get the putt per hole stats there. Totally unrealistic and would get me laughed out of the game. The short game is too easy and the heavy rough isn't penal enough. Players accept unrealistic gameplay but won't accept unrealistic solutions to compensate. Just trying to find a middle ground here. Yep totally agree.
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Post by t2theb2 on Dec 29, 2015 14:19:27 GMT -5
Are we playing golf here or having a competition to see who can score over par. Its becomming boring. You are never making a decent course play to par. Your trying to get the designers to make the game harder for hb when it will have to be down to some change in the mechanics in either an update or a future title. There is not enough courses designed with what your wanting for a reason, because its hard to design. Does it matter if its -5 or -80 its the same for everyone. I never here anybody asking ea to make it where you cant score on fifa just so we get 0-0 draws like in real life. Also never seen anybody put square wheels on their car on formula 1 because they're lapping faster than they do on the tv. I am a big golf fan and would love to see realistic score if you could also make a course with realistic conditions. But it aint happening is it. So surely we just have to carry on how we are and have a mix of concrete courses and some softer ones. Why would we want the same things week in week out. Half the people would get bored and stop playing.
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Post by smurfblade88 on Dec 29, 2015 14:47:52 GMT -5
Are we playing golf here or having a competition to see who can score over par. Its becomming boring. You are never making a decent course play to par. Your trying to get the designers to make the game harder for hb when it will have to be down to some change in the mechanics in either an update or a future title. There is not enough courses designed with what your wanting for a reason, because its hard to design. Does it matter if its -5 or -80 its the same for everyone. I never here anybody asking ea to make it where you cant score on fifa just so we get 0-0 draws like in real life. Also never seen anybody put square wheels on their car on formula 1 because they're lapping faster than they do on the tv. I am a big golf fan and would love to see realistic score if you could also make a course with realistic conditions. But it aint happening is it. So surely we just have to carry on how we are and have a mix of concrete courses and some softer ones. Why would we want the same things week in week out. Half the people would get bored and stop playing. Yep..iv been sayin the same thing for months....its a video game not real life...so get on wit it and hav fun.
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Post by jwfickett on Dec 29, 2015 15:02:36 GMT -5
Thanks for feedback on The Conservatory Club. Was designed with challenges in mind that i suspected would be divisive. There are a few things i would change about it (and did, see the Southern Conservatory Club as an easier test), but it's got some good holes.
Pin on hole 4 slightly wonky but holes 6, 7, 9, and 16-18 are some of my favorite holes i've ever designed.
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Post by scarpacci on Dec 29, 2015 16:52:37 GMT -5
Are we playing golf here or having a competition to see who can score over par. Its becomming boring. You are never making a decent course play to par. Your trying to get the designers to make the game harder for hb when it will have to be down to some change in the mechanics in either an update or a future title. There is not enough courses designed with what your wanting for a reason, because its hard to design. Does it matter if its -5 or -80 its the same for everyone. I never here anybody asking ea to make it where you cant score on fifa just so we get 0-0 draws like in real life. Also never seen anybody put square wheels on their car on formula 1 because they're lapping faster than they do on the tv. I am a big golf fan and would love to see realistic score if you could also make a course with realistic conditions. But it aint happening is it. So surely we just have to carry on how we are and have a mix of concrete courses and some softer ones. Why would we want the same things week in week out. Half the people would get bored and stop playing. It's not really about making a torture chamber. I just want to try to identify the elements of course design that could be tweaked a bit to offer a more accurate playing experience without sacrificing too much realism. I don't think it's impossible and I don't think dropping scores by 5-10 strokes a round would drive people away. The players are more important to TGCTours than the designers so if the consensus from them is everything is fine the way it is then so be it. I will say as a designer it's becoming boring creating courses that get ripped apart on tour. Fun is subjective. To me, it's no fun knowing if I make a par I'll be out of contention in a tournament. It's why I'm not as involved as a tour player as much as I would like to be. I'm sure there are as many people who think like me as think like you.
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Kodiak_OS
Weekend Golfer
Posts: 146
TGCT Name: Dan Turner
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Post by Kodiak_OS on Dec 29, 2015 20:39:48 GMT -5
The top players should be avg. 1.5 putts per hole ( -9 ) as each player has 36 shots on each green per round to play to par. At the moment the top players are avg. 1 putt per hole ( -18 ). Until designers address this problem you will see scores in the -60 range. Honestly, I don't see this as a designer's problem. It would require 100 yard greens with pins in the middle surrounded by giant slopes to get the putt per hole stats there. Totally unrealistic and would get me laughed out of the game. The short game is too easy and the heavy rough isn't penal enough. Players accept unrealistic gameplay but won't accept unrealistic solutions to compensate. Just trying to find a middle ground here. To the bolded, if you're talking around the greens on chips and flops, completely agree but it's overly penal with the irons. Should penalize accuracy more than it does while lessoning the distance penalty some. Hopefully a future iteration of this game allows designers to also select the thickness of the rough instead of just light/heavy they allow for now. I was a big proponent for more realistic scores for much of season one but have come to realize it's just not going to happen with this current version. Here's to hoping HB rethink some of their design choices if they release a TGC 2. Really I hope they add more options for tournament creators and designers. Thinking broader spectrum and about all potential consumers, have the options so guys that want to shoot in the 50's can do so or the lesser skilled guys can still shoot reasonable scores but allowing for the more skilled and more sim geared crowd to achieve want they want as well. Options in games are never a bad thing.
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Post by scarpacci on Dec 29, 2015 21:11:22 GMT -5
Hi Kodiak_OS, I did mean around the green in that statement. However, to your point on the irons, I feel like it almost should be overly penal since driving is so easy in this game. Perhaps narrowed fairways with a wider primary cut of rough is an acceptable middle ground worth exploring.
I agree more options would benefit everybody. More options for the designers to control firmness and sliders for the rough thickness would be a great start. Allowing tournament creators to control tee and pin placement would be great too.
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Post by jtcurrent on Dec 29, 2015 21:13:52 GMT -5
Are we playing golf here or having a competition to see who can score over par. Its becomming boring. You are never making a decent course play to par. Your trying to get the designers to make the game harder for hb when it will have to be down to some change in the mechanics in either an update or a future title. There is not enough courses designed with what your wanting for a reason, because its hard to design. Does it matter if its -5 or -80 its the same for everyone. I never here anybody asking ea to make it where you cant score on fifa just so we get 0-0 draws like in real life. Also never seen anybody put square wheels on their car on formula 1 because they're lapping faster than they do on the tv. I am a big golf fan and would love to see realistic score if you could also make a course with realistic conditions. But it aint happening is it. So surely we just have to carry on how we are and have a mix of concrete courses and some softer ones. Why would we want the same things week in week out. Half the people would get bored and stop playing. Yep..iv been sayin the same thing for months....its a video game not real life...so get on wit it and hav fun. I think you two are just about right here. But I'm always thinking there's a way to improve things and I'd like to see 6 under be a strong single round score. To me this requires 4 things: Fairways should be tough to hit. Missing shoukd cost us a half stroke and missing doesn't happen enough. Next, good approach shots should yield 20 to 30 foot putts. This way birdie is earned, not something you'd better get to stay in contention. Simply put the better players are just too good at 10 to 15 foot putts. On the same vein apptoach shot misses can't yield 7 to 12 yd chips many people can make routinely. Large greens help here. And lastly I think greens should have only moderate break at the hole. Big breaks at the hole seem to be trying too hard and can frustrate players. Just my opinions though and I promise to try to support them with a course soon. But guys like scarpacci are just great at design and it's soooooo much harder than they make it look.
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Post by scarpacci on Dec 30, 2015 4:43:54 GMT -5
Tested a couple more tonight, Cuyahoga and the Conservatory Club. I wont bother posting a link to the stream since it's filled with rage quits and re-starts.
First up was Cuyahoga. Let me just say that if this is what it takes to challenge you guys then I want no part of it. No offense to the designer because it was a good looking course but the pin placements were ridiculous and completely unrealistic. I had 14mph winds and it was a complete horror show. I think I made it through 6 or 7 holes before calling it quits. Fairways were narrow and difficult to find in these winds but not over the top. It's pretty clear now that narrower fairways is a step in the right direction.
Next was The Conservatory Club. In my opinion this is a near perfect course for the PGA/EURO level of competition. This is golf. Really makes you think over almost every shot. Rewards course management and punishes poor execution. You'll need every shot in the bag to score well here and better have perfect speed control on your putts. This is what I strive to create. If somebody shoot -15 here, so be it. They will have definitely earned it.
This flies in the face of the opinions of coruler2 and brighttail which is a little concerning. I'm wondering if perhaps you guys mixed up the courses? I didn't find any pins on conservatory that were over the top, every pin on Cuyahoga was.
I'll have to go back and read through the tournament threads to see other peoples opinions on these courses. If most people are moaning about conservatory being too difficult then it's clear the majority of players aren't really after a challenge, which is totally fine. After a couple rage quits, I mean practice rounds, I was able to shoot -3 in low winds. If I can do that, the tour pros should be able to push -10 (or better) in the same conditions. Looking back at the leader board it looks like thats what they did.
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