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Post by scarpacci on Dec 28, 2015 20:23:02 GMT -5
I would really like to design courses that offer a challenge for the best players but you guys are so damn good I'm starting to think it's an impossible task for me. I haven't given up just yet but I need some input to help me so I'm asking you guys for help. I would be extremely grateful If you could find the time to do these 2 things for me:
1. What is the name of a course that you would consider a fair challenge for the elite players and a good fit for the PGA/Euro Tour? I plan to play any courses mentioned but a brief explanation of what you feel makes it tour caliber would be helpful.
2. Play a round at Spectacle Island Links (Tour) and answer the questions below (please read the questions before your round as some are specific). This is not some sort of self promotion and I'm not looking for a rating or anything. It's my latest attempt at designing a course that is meant to be difficult and I'm just looking for feedback on how it plays.
a) Was the course set-up fairly?
b) What did you like about the set-up?
c) What did you dislike about the set-up?
d) What did you score?
e) How much wind?
f) What holes did you birdie?
g) How did you make those birdies (putt, chip, other)
h) Were there any holes you found too difficult?
i) Were there any holes you found too easy?
Other comments:
Thank you in advance
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Post by smurfblade88 on Dec 28, 2015 22:59:24 GMT -5
I would really like to design courses that offer a challenge for the best players but you guys are so damn good I'm starting to think it's an impossible task for me. I haven't given up just yet but I need some input to help me so I'm asking you guys for help. I would be extremely grateful If you could find the time to do these 2 things for me: 1. What is the name of a course that you would consider a fair challenge for the elite players and a good fit for the PGA/Euro Tour? I plan to play any courses mentioned but a brief explanation of what you feel makes it tour caliber would be helpful. 2. Play a round at Spectacle Island Links (Tour) and answer the questions below (please read the questions before your round as some are specific). This is not some sort of self promotion and I'm not looking for a rating or anything. It's my latest attempt at designing a course that is meant to be difficult and I'm just looking for feedback on how it plays. a) Was the course set-up fairly? b) What did you like about the set-up? c) What did you dislike about the set-up? d) What did you score? e) How much wind? f) What holes did you birdie? g) How did you make those birdies (putt, chip, other) h) Were there any holes you found too difficult? i) Were there any holes you found too easy? Other comments: Thank you in advance Tough courses i liked 1) Cuyahoga 2) Royal Lytham & St Annes 3) Royal Blackburn (kinda difficult) Answers to ur Qs A) For me some holes were and some holes were not. I played in double digit winds and it felt like on too many holes it was not possible to hold a ball on the green and i was left of the back chipping. B) I liked the settings- Fastish & Firm. It also looked very nice. C) Like i said above some holes were set up to protect par a bit too much. I also didn really like the circular patches of rough in the middle of some fairways. D) -5 E) 10-15mph F) Cant remember, sorry. G) Pretty sure all my birdies were putts. H) Yes a few for the reasons above...cant remember the hole numbers. I) No Had i seen this thread before i played i cudda helped a bit more.
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Post by Doyley on Dec 28, 2015 23:39:17 GMT -5
At work so can't play but can list some tough courses that played fair enough - I'll link their leaderboards for the ones we've played on tour Cuyahoga - one knock on this one was that short chips were a plenty with many tucked pins - solution may be fairway runoffs Falcon Bay - (Next week's HTOC event on PGA) - link is to US Open Qualifying - 99% sure the 1st two rounds were Falcon Bay and the last two were Empyreal The Players Club - Stadium - new Q-School stop for 2016 Shawnee Creek - shorter but still tough - linked the Web.com results The Conservatory Club - probably deserves another tour stop Elmview Golf Club - Open Edition - winner of the US Open design contest Dunholme Manor - one of the new Q-School courses for 2016 The Club at Ridenour - similar to Cuyahoga in difficulty ---- Harbour Pointe - toughest on the PGA - most might not call it fair thought Most of those had winners between -25 and -35. Harbour Pointe was our most realistic looking leaderboard on PGA but most didn't enjoy the firm/fast setup there.
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Post by scarpacci on Dec 28, 2015 23:51:41 GMT -5
Thanks for the input Smurf. It was fun watching wag's stream with your commentary in the background. Some day I won't be working and can join the group. My internet connection is flawless.
Thanks for the list! I think it's going to be really helpful to study these challenging courses.
Thing about the wind is if you flip it around then the tough holes become easier and the easier become tougher. If I try to make every hole playable in every possible wind situation the result is a really easy course.
I do keep the direction of holes in mind though. For instance, 16 is nearly impossible to hold with a wind at your back. However with the same wind you can utilize the shortcut on 17 for a shorter approach and 18 will play longer but the wind will help the approach to the 18th green.
Now if the wind is in your face on 16 you will be able to hold the green, but it will make 17 play much longer and 18 play shorter.
That's just for the final 3 holes. There are 15 others to worry about too!
Keep them coming folks! Any answer to just question 1 would be fine too. I understand there are only so many hours in the day.
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Post by scarpacci on Dec 28, 2015 23:57:24 GMT -5
Most of those had winners between -25 and -35. Harbour Pointe was our most realistic looking leaderboard on PGA but most didn't enjoy the firm/fast setup there. Awesome, thanks Doyley. I get the sense that there are two camps. Those that want more realistic scoring and those that want more realistic courses. The latter being the majority. I guess I'm trying to find the middle ground. Hopefully researching these courses will help.
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Post by smurfblade88 on Dec 29, 2015 0:07:38 GMT -5
Harbour pointe is an abomination of a course imo. Its nothin to do with the conditions, i love fast & firm as a setting. The issue with that course was that the greens wer too small for fast & firm and the majority of pins wer tucked away in places that were impossible to get anywhere near. With the greens being small it means that most people will spend the rnd chipping from the rough cz the greens are so tough to hold.
Imo fast and firm shud be like Lytham & St Annes. 12/13 greens where the green is big enough to hold an approach shot and the pins are accesible and 5/6 greens hav really tough pins to get to but its possible if u play a gud enuf shot.
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Post by Doyley on Dec 29, 2015 0:46:16 GMT -5
Imo fast and firm shud be like Lytham & St Annes. 12/13 greens where the green is big enough to hold an approach shot and the pins are accesible and 5/6 greens hav really tough pins to get to but its possible if u play a gud enuf shot. Don't disagree about Harbour Pointe (although I wouldn't go so far as calling it an abomination - just extremely punishing) - that's why I separated it from the rest. Unfortunately if you do setups like Lytham & St. Annes with big greens and soft open fairways you get the same results as our normal setups - it's not really tougher, you're just running the ball up but still calculating in the extra roll. I suppose there's not much we can do setup wise when the game is so accurate with regards to distance and aim. Whatever the designers put out there, with the game's current setup, there's a way to attack it. I think the HB guys will tweak some of the gameplay (loft and hopefully mis-hits) to produce more spread in the shots. They're in a tough spot though as there is no easy fix for everyone. Still think there's room for improvement and the ball is in their court more so than the designers at this point.
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Post by smurfblade88 on Dec 29, 2015 0:50:33 GMT -5
Imo fast and firm shud be like Lytham & St Annes. 12/13 greens where the green is big enough to hold an approach shot and the pins are accesible and 5/6 greens hav really tough pins to get to but its possible if u play a gud enuf shot. Don't disagree about Harbour Pointe (although I wouldn't go so far as calling it an abomination - just extremely punishing) - that's why I separated it from the rest. Unfortunately if you do setups like Lytham & St. Annes with big greens and soft open fairways you get the same results as our normal setups - it's not really tougher, you're just running the ball up but still calculating in the extra roll. I suppose there's not much we can do setup wise when the game is so accurate with regards to distance and aim. Whatever the designers put out there, with the game's current setup, there's a way to attack it. I think the HB guys will tweak some of the gameplay (loft and hopefully mis-hits) to produce more spread in the shots. They're in a tough spot though as there is no easy fix for everyone. Still think there's room for improvement and the ball is in their court more so than the designers at this point. In fairness to Lytham & St Annes a multi pin set up and bigger winds wud hav made it much better. Apart from 7/8 holes of the 72 the winds wer tame.
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Post by Doyley on Dec 29, 2015 0:56:28 GMT -5
Antonio, I would take a close look at Ridenour, Cuyahoga and the Conservatory Club. Those three really stand out to me as being the some of the best setups to challenge the top players. Cuyahoga really pushed difficult pin locations while Ridenour had hard par 4's. Conservatory Club was a mix of those two.
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Post by coruler2 on Dec 29, 2015 2:24:57 GMT -5
I thought Conservatory Club was really tricked up due to very tight pins with no bounce up/landing areas to get close. This was the last course I played where I missed the cut. I just don't care for holes where you HAVE to bail out or not go for the pin but leave it in the best spot to chip in. To me, I think a great shot should be rewarded. I tend to like hard courses where there's danger for going at it, but great shots give a good chance at birdie. This is the design philosophy I try to go for...multiple ways to attack the hole and reward great shots and punish bad shots.
Ridenour and Cuyahoga were tough but more playable in my opinion, both of those courses were good challenges without being super tricked out. I really liked Cuyahoga but Scott is right, the smaller greens may have been better with runoff and collection areas rather than tighter thick rough for short chips. Dunholme and TPC Stadium also great and tougher courses...both fair but hard. These would be the four courses I'd study.
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Post by Brighttail on Dec 29, 2015 3:59:00 GMT -5
I thought Conservatory Club was really tricked up due to very tight pins with no bounce up/landing areas to get close. This was the last course I played where I missed the cut. I just don't care for holes where you HAVE to bail out or not go for the pin but leave it in the best spot to chip in. To me, I think a great shot should be rewarded. I tend to like hard courses where there's danger for going at it, but great shots give a good chance at birdie. This is the design philosophy I try to go for...multiple ways to attack the hole and reward great shots and punish bad shots. Ridenour and Cuyahoga were tough but more playable in my opinion, both of those courses were good challenges without being super tricked out. I really liked Cuyahoga but Scott is right, the smaller greens may have been better with runoff and collection areas rather than tighter thick rough for short chips. Dunholme and TPC Stadium also great and tougher courses...both fair but hard. These would be the four courses I'd study. I agree with Coruler here about the Conservatory Club. I have no problem aiming for center green for a longer putt, but there were some holes where even that seemed not possible. Any course where it is easier to aim for the rough next to the hole is missing something for me. One of the things I would like to suggest is holes that take away the option of playing for the rough. If you have a tucked pin, playing for the center of the green is a very reasonable play, however if you take away the rough on the side and back of the hole where the pin is tucked and set up a collection area, I think this would help keep people from simply playing for the rough and a quick chip in for birdie on an otherwise par hole. As with Doyley, I believe that HB will eventually come up with a firmness between medium and hard that will help solve some of these issues of needing either a large green to play into or rough around the green to stop the ball.
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Post by scarpacci on Dec 29, 2015 5:43:00 GMT -5
Course study #1: The Club at Ridenour I played the Thursday set-up because it had the most plays and lowest rating (which usually means its difficult). I had 8-13 MPH through the round. For point of reference I'm a Web.com tour player (just started playing again recently). I think I could fight to keep a PGA tour card if I were ever to make it there. I shot 5 under par. Should have been lower but for a silly, rushed 3 putt on one hole and a frame rate induced he-man putt that popped over the hole on another. Course record on the PS4 is -14 with a few close followers but then a pretty steep drop off. Not sure if anybody would remember but I'm guessing this tourney was played during the "wind fix" that had every tour playing in hurricanes? I could see how this course could pose problems in high winds due to the narrow fairways and small greens. Looking over the stats from the tourney and those on the PS4 it doesn't appear the narrow fairways caused too many issues. I'm guessing some are in the 15 yards wide range. I have been hesitant to drop my FW widths below 25-30 yard threshold but this course proves that narrow FW's with a first cut can work. Driving the ball is so easy in this game, even in high winds. I think it's perfectly acceptable to drop FW's to the 15-20 yard range. I think this is an area we can compromise realism for a more authentic playing experience. The greens were rather tame, at least around the holes. There were some rather dramatic slopes in places but those hardly came into play. Judging by the stats, putting wasn't the problem, hitting the greens is the issue. I suspect this is due mostly to the pin placements and the fact that the short game is so simple that it was a better option to take your chances shooting at the pin, knowing there was an easy chip waiting than play for the safe part of the green for a longer putt. Jury is still out on the the best way to handle green difficulty but I don't think the smaller greens, with tucked pins, surrounded by heavy rough is the best option.
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Post by scarpacci on Dec 29, 2015 5:49:15 GMT -5
Thanks guys. I'm liking the run-off/collection area idea. Let me know if you can think of any in-game examples I can take a look at. I've been mostly using these on par 5s. I did use that idea on one of my older courses but it was so poorly executed at the time. It's definitely something I'm going to start incorporating more often.
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Post by Brighttail on Dec 29, 2015 6:53:22 GMT -5
Thanks guys. I'm liking the run-off/collection area idea. Let me know if you can think of any in-game examples I can take a look at. I've been mostly using these on par 5s. I did use that idea on one of my older courses but it was so poorly executed at the time. It's definitely something I'm going to start incorporating more often. Yeah this really only has the purpose of stopping people from shooting into the rough on a tucked pin or a pin in the back of the green. Having a 15-30 yard flop is still fairly easy to save par but it is better in my opinion for the course than having a 8 yard chip.
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Post by rod81simo on Dec 29, 2015 7:03:25 GMT -5
Thanks guys. I'm liking the run-off/collection area idea. Let me know if you can think of any in-game examples I can take a look at. I've been mostly using these on par 5s. I did use that idea on one of my older courses but it was so poorly executed at the time. It's definitely something I'm going to start incorporating more often. I love fairway run offs and use them quite regularly, check out 2 of my courses and see what you think in terms of setup,difficulty and runoffs, the 2 courses are Royal Ballylough and Growling Frog, both these courses featured on the Euro and PGA Tours respectively, both winners mid to high 30s from memory. I think this course of yours is a stern test, the firmness is spot on and the greens handle the speed fine, nice use of slopes on greens, one thing to be sure of tho is that you allow enough room to stop a ball on the surface, having a green that 90% of the time you'll end up running thru isn't fun and leaving the option to play some 30ft away whilst happens IRL won't go down to well in game so just stretch a few greens here and there and you've got a winner, love the look design and the hole layouts themselves were really good, keep it up Scarp!!
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