Pro Tours Demotion

[Deleted]

I think it would be a good idea to have the 3-strike rule for missed cuts on the Pro Tours. 3 consecutive missed cuts and you are demoted.

Currently you can volunteer to be demoted after three consecutive missed cuts but I don't believe a lot of people want to do that or just don't know they can do that. It ends with too many people playing in a tour that they are not quite good enough and they lose the desire to play the game.

I know the idea is once you gain a pro card you've got it for the season for a season long race. However, this virtual tour moves extremely quicker in comparison to real life. With so many people coming and going all season the standard keeps changing.

An example? I'm currently on the Euro Tour but I am average at best. I've made 3/6 cuts. I believe currently there are better players on tours below me who will soon join me in the next few weeks when they get promoted. I'll need to up my game. However, if I don't I will get missed cut after missed cut and it won't be as fun if I feel I can't make the cuts. The option is there to self demote after 3. Would I use it? Probably not, because its admitting defeat.

I missed the first 3 cuts this season and would have been alright with a forced demotion. Also, if there was a forced demotion then that third event would have been much more exciting for me as I would have been battling to keep my card.

With the top places a long way off then trying to battle all season to keep the card would bring extra excitement to the below average Pro Tour players. You get force demoted? Then you have the excitement of trying to regain a pro tour card. You don't get force demoted? Your interesting wanes slightly and you're too stubborn to admit defeat.

So the idea is...

3 missed cuts in a row equals demotion. All you need to do is make a cut to wipe the strikes out.

[champ39]

Everyone on the Web.com received a missed cut for the charity event if they didn't participate?

[Deleted]

Dec 3, 2015 6:30:09 GMT -5 champ39 said:

Everyone on the Web.com received a missed cut for the charity event if they didn't participate?

I see you noted it elsewhere.  The staff should get that worked out eventually.  That isn't right.

[Deleted]

I don't like it, Luke. It takes a lot to earn a Euro or PGA card. Personally, I worked my tail off to improve and earn mine at the tail end of season one.  I wouldn't give it up easily.  Especially if I had a bad string of events (3 weeks) working through some struggles while playing courses that do not suit my play.  They (PGA/Euro) aren't even playing full fields now (close, but not full). The RL tours have half the field miss cuts. A below average golfer among the top tours is going to miss cuts more than not. But they earned that card. If they play poorly enough over a season, then they have to defend it in the Web.com Finals.

If you advocate this move, you have to advocate the same for Web.com down to CC-A to keep a nice balance of players. Web.com is the most active Pro tour already. Having a rule like you propose without a Web.com to CC-A rule of the same type would only make Web.com all the more populated with active players.

I think the distinction between a Pro tour and the CC circuits is clear and cut. It should remain that way.

[yaters]

I like this idea, but I agree with the last comment that it should apply to the Web.com tour as well.  In fact, I think it would be more useful on the Web.com tour since there was just a single tournament where any CC level player could be promoted.  Some have performed well and others just had one good tournament and aren't doing that well.  

Me personally, I barely made it to the web.com tour by one stroke.  I have managed to make all the cuts in the web.com tour with the exception of one week.  But each week there are a handful of CC players moving up that are really good.  It just makes it more difficult to compete consistently.  I've made it my goal to improve and try to make cuts.  I think I would be very frustrated missing cuts and only submitting 2 rounds every week.

Dec 3, 2015 5:51:36 GMT -5 oswinner said:

With the top places a long way off then trying to battle all season to keep the card would bring extra excitement to the below average Pro Tour players. You get force demoted? Then you have the excitement of trying to regain a pro tour card. You don't get force demoted? Your interesting wanes slightly and you're too stubborn to admit defeat. 

^ This is key I think.  There are a number of players that are talking about self-demoting and not sure if they should, shouldn't, when the best time to do it, etc.  

Perhaps the rules are 3 cuts missed in a row and you can self-demote from any pro tour.  But 5 in a row and you are automatically demoted.  Either way, earning that card back is the goal.  

Just my thoughts.  

[Deleted]

Web.com was intended when I said pro tours. I do believe I would have enjoyed my third tournament much more if the danger of losing my card was added. Instead, I kind of played casually to a third missed cut. The top players play every week here unlike real life so it gives the average joes something to strive towards.

[mrooola]

Why would you NEED Web to demote in the same manner? What you need is to fill PGA and Euro with as many players that get demoted.

I see different problems I guess.. The PRO tours just as pretty much any tour right now include players that probably ends up in the bottom more that they would care to admit.
The cut is at 70. That leaves about 100 players each week from PGA and Euro that missed a cut. How many of those 100 would get demoted in 3 weeks? You'd have to fill that void with Web players.
Short term I see a balance issue but sure. Some sort of demotion system should probably be used though even for Web, but as a non pro tour player I'll keep my hands off that discussion.

[Deleted]

I think it's a long road and a lot of work to get to the PGA, Euro and Web tours and once you get these cards, you should be allowed to keep that card for the year. With the 3 strike demotion, I would have been facing demotion in week 4 of the season as I missed two cuts in a row. If I'd missed the next cut I'd be gone, (with the auto demotion rule) but as it is, I've played decently since and am now 43rd on the money list. Having done a self demotion last year from the PGA, I can tell you that while I enjoyed making cuts and competing for top finished on the Web, all I thought about was getting back to the top tour.

[Doyley]

Dec 8, 2015 21:27:53 GMT -5 @brownief104 said:

I think it's a long road and a lot of work to get to the PGA, Euro and Web tours and once you get these cards, you should be allowed to keep that card for the year. With the 3 strike demotion, I would have been facing demotion in week 4 of the season as I missed two cuts in a row. If I'd missed the next cut I'd be gone, (with the auto demotion rule) but as it is, I've played decently since and am now 43rd on the money list. Having done a self demotion last year from the PGA, I can tell you that while I enjoyed making cuts and competing for top finished on the Web, all I thought about was getting back to the top tour.

This is the consensus of the admin as well - fight to get your pro tour card.  Once you get it, it's yours for the year and up to you to make enough headway to keep it at the end of the season.  Should you feel you are out of your league we keep the voluntary demotions there for those that qualify.  People are making use of them pretty much weekly so that part of it is working.  The trick is keeping enough people in the pro tours as we are already seeing a dip in participation.

We'll look to backfill the tours and get them back up to 135+ active soon.

[mcbogga]

The system is perfect for the top tours - Doyles!

[Mick]

I demoted myself mainly because I like playing 4 rounds and my consistency is the real problem. There were a couple of times that I would actually do pretty good if all 4 rounds counted. I do think though that there should be something in-between CC-A and the WEB tour.

[Deleted]

The thing is a year is a very long time in video golf. Much longer than in real life and it's not extremely hard to regain a Top Tour card. Finish top 5 in web and then make the cut and you're back in. Back in for at least three events (with the 3-strike policy)

I could have demoted myself in week 4 but that's like admitting defeat. It's like if an English premiership team that finishes bottom three has the choice to be relegated or not. Even if they are losing every week they wouldn't choose to be relegated. Plus, if I choose to get demoted then I'm not exactly going to be buzzing about getting promoted back to where I was. However, if it's forced upon then you will be striving to get back.

So what's left is a lack of excitement each week as you know you're not going to win but you know you're not going to lose your card either. I think that's why the below average pro tour players lose interest. I could be wrong however. It'd be interesting to see how many peeps have actually missed three straight cuts. I bet not that many.

[Deleted]

Dec 9, 2015 15:58:19 GMT -5 oswinner said:

The thing is a year is a very long time in video golf. Much longer than in real life and it's not extremely hard to regain a Top Tour card. Finish top 5 in web and then make the cut and you're back in. Back in for at least three events (with the 3-strike policy)

I could have demoted myself in week 4 but that's like admitting defeat. It's like if an English premiership team that finishes bottom three has the choice to be relegated or not. Even if they are losing every week they wouldn't choose to be relegated. Plus, if I choose to get demoted then I'm not exactly going to be buzzing about getting promoted back to where I was. However, if it's forced upon then you will be striving to get back.

So what's left is a lack of excitement each week as you know you're not going to win but you know you're not going to lose your card either. I think that's why the below average pro tour players lose interest. I could be wrong however. It'd be interesting to see how many peeps have actually missed three straight cuts. I bet not that many.

Web.com is so competitive right now.  I think that if you are getting 3 MC's in a row, you likely are not going to get a top 5 on Web (The harder part of this two parter) and then the next week get a top 70 on PGA/Euro.  If you listen to the latest podcast, Nic Zaiser points this out very well as Ken Wenzel brought up the demotion thing.

I do understand what you mean about the latter half of the post about losing interest, however.

Few on both PGA and especially Euro have a chance of winning each week, but I do wish if others took this as a long term thing, they would set realistic goals for themselves.  Set realistic ones that you'd like to accomplish realistically as a floor, then set ones that you'd like to accomplish that you feel are attainable but are also a legit challenge, and then set ones that are above your comfort level and not expect to make them but if you do... Wow!  The last is not something to feel failure about if you do not achieve them, rather a big goal that you will feel pride in if you accomplish.

For example, my goals that are above my comfort level are two things.  One is somewhat attainable but not going to happen too often, the other is very hard to get and have no shame in not reaching.  The first is beating both James Morgan and Griffin Ray on a PGA event.  I am pretty sure I did this once this year.  The latter is a simpler goal.. to win on the PGA Tour.  I still am working on this one.

But going back to the demotion thing and back on topic, I really think what is in place is well thought out and not only replicates the real life top tours, it also does not stray too far from how TGCT sets up its playoffs at the end of the year.

[ed68bogus]

I've just missed the cut for a second week on Euros but am ranked WGR 74, if I missed next week and got demoted it'd cost me dearly in earnings.
For me personally it's a grind, week in week out, but I take satisfaction in maintaining my level and occasionally over achieving. I can though understand some who'd like to demote but it should remain optional...

[Deleted]

Good discussion guys. Love it. :-)