Royal Terra Golf Links - Feedback to get it Tour Worthy

[tripleeagle2112]

Hi TGC community and course designers,

My newly published course "Royal Terra Golf Links" was recently approved into the data base. Thank you to the reviewers involved, very much appreciate the work you do. I would love some feedback from any of you regarding what it would take to get my courses (this course in particular) to a "tour worthy" level. I've taken suggestions from videos and forums but am lacking something.

tgctours.com/Course/Details/30695?PlayerId=78448

My own critiques of Royal Terra include:
1. Some off-course ground cover looks like an afterthought, and some on-course ground cover with buried trees looks a little out of place

2. Certain fairway surfaces may be a bit too "bumpy" even for a links course, perhaps the fairway edges especially could use softening

3. Background hills may be a bit too "bumpy", perhaps unnatural looking

4. Bunker waster areas may have too inconsistent of a look from one another

5. Bunker sizing and heavy rough size around the bunkers look a little inconsistent at times

6. Some bunkers are overgrown with ground cover, most are not, but not sure if that matters.

7. Some planting may look a little "forced" while trying to pull of a links ground cover look

8. Failed to clean up "rocky" heavy rough near some of the playing surfaces

Thank you for any feedback you experienced designers can offer, especially those who have created Tour Worthy courses. Some things, of course, are design choices, but I don't plan to defend anything I've done. Since I'm asking for feedback, I'll appreciate any criticisms you can offer. Thank you!

[sroel908]

Just played a round here...Pin 3, black tees, default conditions. Disclaimer: I am not a course reviewer here, but do schedule tours and ranger tour courses. I have made some Tour Worthy courses as well.

Hole 1 - surfacing is a bit strange...the walking path from tee to fairway is jagged and kind of detracts from the overall view off the tee box. In general, the fairway edges themselves need smoothing out, as they are also jagged and wavy. Sculpting of the bunker in front of the green makes it look more like a crater than a "bunker"...I assume this is kind of meant to be a pot bunker, which is a real pain to make in this game, but the way it's sculpted here means it's not visible from the fairway, less than 100 yards from the hole. All I can see from 84 yards away is the planting by the bunker. The green surface and fairway are kind of hard to tell apart at times.

Hole 2 - the routing here is kind of odd. The Hole 1 fairway is more prevalent in the sightline than Hole 2's is. Also, not my personal preference that the centerline bunker is hidden off the tee. To me, it's a bit overly penal to have a blind tee shot, then also place a hazard in the fairway that can't be seen.

Hole 3 - nicely framed par-3 here. Could use some more planting on the surrounding mounds to make it even more impressive. Sculpting of the fairway short of the green could be more smooth and the fairway itself could be a tad larger, since if a ball were to actually find it, it would probably be sent into heavy rough. It really serves no purpose as it is.

Hole 4 - nice sightline here. Green is huge for a mid-length par-5. Nothing too strategic about this hole...you're probably on in two no matter what. Not a major issue, but the Hole 2 tee boxes just off the left of the fairway are kind of oddly placed, as they are kind of in play here. So it's another bit of routing that could be tweaked.

Hole 5 - sightline feels unbalanced. There's lots of planting just to the left, then very little planting off to the right. Hole design itself is awkward, as the fairway is narrow for most of it, then it oddly bubbles out at about 300 yards. The clusters of grasses just short and right of the green feel random.

Hole 6 - the hole design here is interesting, but the fairway shaping is again a bit unnatural. The hole itself does present the player a choice, and there is danger around the green if you go for it. The concept here is pretty solid.

Hole 7 - this hole design is a bit quirky. I'd probably always go to the left, but even then, sculpting of the fairway leads to an unintentionally blind second shot no matter where you are. I can see that hill on the right leading to some blindness, but from where I was, the rest of the hole was blocked by the hump in the middle of the fairway. This is also a pretty short par-5, as I was on in two with a 7-iron in just medium winds. The area around this pin is also very flat.

Hole 8 - this hole's OK. A pretty straightforward short-4.

Hole 9 - I really like the view of the clubhouse in the background here, but the area around the hole itself feels a tad empty. The view is kind of ruined again by the squiggly surfacing and pathway. Area around the cup is really flat again, too.

Hole 10 - Not a bad hole. However, I'd remove the trees that are planted off to the right, as they just obscure what could be a nice view of the green when hitting your second shot. Planting off to the left of the fairway is kind of non-existent and it feels bare over there.

Hole 11 - nice view again, but some bare areas both to the left and right could use some planting.

Hole 12 - my favorite hole on the course up to this point, but I again don't really care for the hidden centerline bunker. The bunker up near the green is neat, and what I'd like the one on Hole 1 to look like, as well.

Hole 13 - this one's ok, too. Green has an odd shape and it can lead to some forced chips taking place on it due to fairway and rough intruding on putting lines.

Hole 14 - great views on the par-3s...this one is good, too. Maybe some more planting on the left side, but not bad at all. Pin location is pretty flat again. Most putts I've had are quite straight.

Hole 15 - really kind of taken aback on this one, as my tee shot found the green, yet I really had no idea it was green surface until my next shot came up! The green is very large for a short-4, as I had a 107-foot eagle putt. The design and feel of this hole is a bit funky...there's no danger here at all, and it didn't look or seem like a drivable-4 when on the tee.

Hole 16 - very aggressively blind tee shot here. I don't hate blind tee shots, but this is like hitting over a wall and having zero idea of what is out there. Unfortunately, there are bunkers, split fairway sections, and waste areas beyond the mounds that cannot be seen. You do have an aiming guide stick there...but when I aimed at it, the marker had me shooting at the waste area with bushes and grasses in it? The hole is also 487 yards long, and 44 feet uphill, making it a long par-4. The fairway section to the left pinches aggressively at driver distance, so I'd go right here most of the time. On the approach shot, there's very little planting to see near the green, and now it feels a bit barren again. The tee shot was really planted to the max, and the rest of the hole has little to no planting.

Hole 17 - another partially blind tee shot, with more hazards not viewable from the tee. More planting could be used on both sides to enhance the sightlines from the tee. No movement at all near the hole again, so I made a dead flat 12-footer for birdie. This and the previous hole have felt a bit strange, and it's not really feeling like a fun run to the finish.

Hole 18 - and the finishing hole again falls a bit flat for me. A very wide, s-shaped first section of fairway with just some bushes at the bend means no real strategy off the tee. The fairway just stops, and then a new section of fairway starts again about 165 from the hole. It's another short, easily reachable par-5 again. The par-5s have just been missing some kind of shot consideration, and they are all holes where birdie is almost like par.

This is a fine course and has a lot of interesting concepts. The par-3s were quite enjoyable, and Hole 12 along the coast was cool.

Areas I'd consider looking at if Tour Worthy is your goal, is surfacing, hole strategy, and planting. The jagged surfaces need some refinement, and the paths used from tee to fairway didn't look all the great, IMO. Greens and fairways looked almost identical in color and were hard to differentiate.

In terms of strategy, the par-5s didn't really have much. And many of the par-4s shared the same strategy of "don't find the bunkers". The first short-4 did make you think. But then the short-4 on the back 9 felt weird when I hit the green in one without even thinking I could! This basically made most of the holes feel very much the same after a while. I'd recommend reading up on design philosophies and such at places like The Fried Egg to see what kinds of hole types are out there.

Lastly, planting was OK in some areas, then really absent in others. There were lots of bare spots that stood out, especially when other areas in the same view were very boldly planted.

Overall, this is a decent track and was fun to play. Good luck on future builds!

[bhazen]

Just played a round and wanted to give a little feedback.  FYI - not a reviewer, nor am I tied to TGC at all.  I'm just another designer in the game and that's all.  Take my feedback with a grain of salt.

I'm just going to go over a couple of observations I had over the first three holes.


Good length and distribution of different hole lengths.  I personally would have made the back nine a little shorter but that's just me.  The ~600yds between front and back tees total is a pretty good gap, and should create some nice different angles when playing from the different tees without causing sightline issues off the tees.


Hole1

Sightlines off the first tee box are pretty good, you're showing me the hole and hazards.  I would have changed the bunker locations and tilts of them though.  Tactically the hole is just telling you to hit the fairway, and as a player I'm just thinking grip it and rip it.  If I'm left or right - Oh well.. it really doesn't really matter.   I personally would have re-arranged the bunkers to the left and kept the right open.  This way you create a bailout area to the right into deep rough (make it sloped a little also).  You'd still give a penalty for a missed fairway but the player 'thinks' its safer to the right.  You'll get more players missing to the right, creating longer approach shots from harder lies.  Or you could have have done the opposite and reward a long shot off the tee cutting the 'corner'. to keep away from the danger on the right at that point.  Either way you are creating an decision for the player right off the tee.


The approach on one is lacking.  The execution of the pot bunker on the centerline is wrong.  I can't see it see the bunker, the planting around the rim of the bunker is hiding the green and I'm in a prime position from my drive.  From 100yds out show me the green, and bunkers.  If you're going to use a pot bunker on this hole, the location on the left of the green would have been better.  The centerline pot bunker here is basically useless.  You're penalizing either a really poor drive or approach shot with that bunker.  Other than that a pot bunker is for show - show it off.


Hole2

I didn't take a picture of the tee box here, I was distracted by the walkway off the tees and the fairway edges.  They are way too wavy. Hit them with more of the blue fuzzy brush in order to even them out and make the transitions less extreme. I can't tell if the look is on purpose or sloppy because you were consistent throughout the course with this feature.  So I have to assume you were going for that look.  If so, I personally don't like it.  I'd recommend starting your fairways 150yds from the shortest tee anything earlier than that is just distracting.
 
The approach shot on 2 is decent except I can't see the green very well.  I would have lowered the area in front of the green a little so we can see more of the green.  Again my drive was in a good position and I'm not being rewarded with good visuals.  I would expect to have a look if I was to the right or left of centerline or just off the fairway.  But again, I'm only ~50yds out, show me my next shot.

NOTE: see the wavy line of the fairway in this picture where the 1st cut is wider at spots than others?  I'd make them more uniform.  

Hole3

I like the visuals here, and even though I really, really like your planting on the course so far, I do want to point out the 'risk' of planting grasses in front of the tee boxes.  For example here, you have grasses in front of the player but if you draw a line across the screen from left to right, you are basically losing half of your screen's visual that's available to you from this perspective.  I would have lowered the area where you planted grass  and only shown the very top of the grass.  (have the line of grass no taller than my players belt.  Especially the line of sight between the bunkers).  If you do that, you gain sightlines to the front of your fairway off in the distance, this creates more depth to your hole.  In fact I would have made the grass in almost a bowl creating more of a 'u' of 'tunnel' visual off the tee here.

Overall I like the planting you used and how you did it.  I'm not a huge fan of planting along bunker edges but you did a good job.  The sculpting in places is too dramatic and should be toned down a little for better playability.  Some (not all) of the slopes on your greens should be hit with a fuzzy.  I had a 28ft putt on a sidehill lie on one green where I missed the hole on the lowside and the ball travelled another 30ft to only roll off the green. 

Even though I didn't review it here, on the back nine - the beach sand in places looks 'wrong' when I went to look at the fairways.  Personally I can't create good waste bunkers myself, but I think you're really close - I'd keep working on that design aspect.  In some places, the visuals are really, really good.  In other places it almost looks like you got bored with the plot. So I'd be more diligent all the way through the build.  (I totally understand though - I can't tell you how many plots I've started but never have finished.)

I enjoyed the play and look forward to your future designs.  Keep up the good work hopefully this helps.
  

[tripleeagle2112]

Thanks so much, both of you, for the thoughtful feedback, and for taking the time to play and review. Great observations, very helpful 👍