Feedback on Calgary Cliffs CC

[stymie72]

Hello all.

Pretty new to the forums and course design.

I submitted a course (Calgary Cliffs CC) that was not approved.  Only my second course Ive designed... still learning so not surprised but definitely feel I've improved from my first design which had some funky layouts in retrospect.  But would love more specific feedback 

I watched the video on what reviewers look for and what would warrant a course not being approved.  So thinking back, there are things that I think would probably warrant not being approved.

However, I would love some specifics... If there are any players or reviewers who may have reviewed the course who could provide YOUR insights into what didn't work (maybe things I wasn't aware of), that would be helpful for learning what NOT to do in future designs.

Also, can I submit screenshots of works in progress for suggestions?

I see so many amazing courses and really need to expand my imagination and design ideas.

Thanks for any feedback!

[sroel908]

Just played a round here. Black tees, Pin 2, default conditions. I am not a course reviewer, but do ranger and schedule courses for tour play.

Right off the bat, Hole 1 is very, very narrow. A 293-yard par-4 is an interesting opening hole, too - especially since it's one that's not drivable. Iron is the only option off the tee. Fairway to green transitions could be done more cleanly - as it is, the fairway just runs into the green at a harsh angle. Also, your default green speeds are set to the same speed as the "Moderate" speed setting of 134. This limits schedulers as your personal default speed and Moderate speed are exactly the same. It essentially removes one potential green speed option. In the future, consider setting your default green speed to one that's in between two of the game's pre-set speeds, something like 145.

On Hole 2, I am noticing that your light rough cut is not consistent all around the fairways and greens. It's really wide in some areas, and very narrow in others.

Hole 3 has yellow within the 9-box grid around the hole. This means it's technically an "illegal" pin location in terms of TGCTours play, and greens would have to be slowed down to make them work. This again would reduce flexibility of conditions used.

The green on Hole 4 is absolutely massive. I also don't understand why there's a ton of fairway to the front right of the green?

Hole 5 is OK.

The fairway bunkers on Hole 6 are sculpted a bit strangely and sit in the land awkwardly.

Hole 7 is another hole that is too narrow. There's just trees in the line of play on almost every hole...I was in the fairway, 256 yards from the hole on my second here, and couldn't avoid the trees that were straight ahead of me up toward the green. I've had to shape shots on all holes to this point, including on par-3s and on pitch shots up near greens.

Because of how tight the course is, I have barely been able to hit driver. Hole 8 is another of these, where it's such a short par-4 and the corridor is so tight, that I am hitting a 3-hybrid off the tee.

Hole 9 is an awkward design with the rocks splitting the fairway and trees in the line of play again. Also, for a hole that really doesn't let you hit driver off the tee safely, the green is very, very small. I had over 200 yards in, and the green is not receptive to long approach shots.

Hole 10 is another of the very short par-4s on the course...most have been between 300-350 yards long.

And then Hole 11 goes completely in the opposite direction...it's a 540-yard par-4 with danger everywhere. The tee shot is totally blind due to the extreme downhill elevation change and the sculpting/planting. Huge rocks line the right side of the fairway, and a massive cliff lines the left. The fairway landing area itself narrows to maybe 20-25 yards across.

Hole 12's pin location is on a bump in the green, with slopes going away from it in all directions. Just a bit of an awkward spot.

Hole 13 is OK...another massive downhill hole, but this one is more open.

Hole 14 was aggressively uphill, which then necessitated internal OB because of how extreme the uphill second shot from within 100 yards is. I get why the OB is there, but I think there could be less aggressive of an elevation change (I had a 91 yard approach shot that was over 50 feet uphill) and that would prevent the need for internal OB just off the green.

Some of the sculpting on Hole 15 could use some work. The bunkers up near the green are very much like bathtubs and you can't even see them from the middle of the fairway.

The elevation changes on the back nine have gotten very much in the realm of "fantasy"...Hole 16 is an 81 foot downhill par-3 that's just 138 yards long. The huge elevation change means you can't see the green unless you zoom in with scout cam. It's not a problem or anything, but it is getting very much like a roller coaster.

And that continues on Hole 17...which is 349 yards long and 90 feet uphill tee to green. The fairway here seems as it would be impossible to actually exist and maintain at such a dramatic angle. If you don't get over the slope, then your second shot to the green is totally blind due to sculpting.

And Hole 18 is kind of the icing on the cake here...it's a 360-yard par-4 that's a wild 221 feet downhill. No view of fairway from the tee box. You have to hit iron off the tee to avoid going thru the fairway. No view of the green on the second shot because it's still 103 feet below the fairway.

In terms of TGCTours approval, this is not really a course that would be used for a tour. It's just too much in the realm of a "fantasy" course, with all the major elevation changes happening on each and every hole with tons of blindness and extremely narrow corridors. Many of the par-4s are the same distance, even though they play wildly different due to the changes in elevation. Still, you can go almost the whole course without using driver.

I think it was a decent course for a fun round. But because of some technical things (bunkers, surfacing, sculpting, blindness due to sculpting, default green speed set to the same as an in-game default speed) and the fantasy nature of the design, it's one that doesn't really work well for tour play.

Hope this helps! Good luck on future builds!

[stymie72]

Thanks for taking the time to play it and give me feedback! Truly appreciate it.

Just to point out some things you were curious about. The hole 4 green is massive... yes. That is why I had that other fairway to the right leading up to it. In favorable wind conditions, it is most definitely reachable in one off the tee by hitting over the trees so that fairway and large green is to allow a long drive to roll onto the green.

Hole 9, with the split fairway and smallish green and hole 10 with the no place to miss fairway? I concede those points. I wondered if those holes might be a bit quirky

As for the elevation changes, I have played some holes in reality with dramatic elevation changes.. Being from New England, and playing some Mountain courses, it's not unusual to have uphill drives, big drops in elevation, etc... However... it is likely I overdid it.

And regarding your comments on the trees... and having to bend shots? That was intentional. I wanted some holes to be target golf rather than grip it and rip it, require placement off the tee, and try to have all types of shots to be used.

However, if that is not something that would ever be desired by most playing in a tourney... I can definitely open it up.

Again, this is where my design idea needs work.. for sure. I appreciate your feedback and will make note in future designs. Open things up, pay a bit more attention to my pin placements, etc..

Did you happen to see any issues with the natural look of the course? Plantings, etc... I know that is an area that they also consider.

Thanks!

[sroel908]

Jan 24, 2024 13:10:33 GMT -5 stymie72 said:

Thanks for taking the time to play it and give me feedback! Truly appreciate it.

Just to point out some things you were curious about. The hole 4 green is massive... yes. That is why I had that other fairway to the right leading up to it. In favorable wind conditions, it is most definitely reachable in one off the tee by hitting over the trees so that fairway and large green is to allow a long drive to roll onto the green.

Hole 9, with the split fairway and smallish green and hole 10 with the no place to miss fairway? I concede those points. I wondered if those holes might be a bit quirky

As for the elevation changes, I have played some holes in reality with dramatic elevation changes.. Being from New England, and playing some Mountain courses, it's not unusual to have uphill drives, big drops in elevation, etc... However... it is likely I overdid it.

And regarding your comments on the trees... and having to bend shots? That was intentional. I wanted some holes to be target golf rather than grip it and rip it, require placement off the tee, and try to have all types of shots to be used.

However, if that is not something that would ever be desired by most playing in a tourney... I can definitely open it up.

Again, this is where my design idea needs work.. for sure. I appreciate your feedback and will make note in future designs. Open things up, pay a bit more attention to my pin placements, etc..

Did you happen to see any issues with the natural look of the course? Plantings, etc... I know that is an area that they also consider.

Thanks!

Having to shape shots is not inherently a bad thing. However, I was having to hit hooked and sliced pitch shots into greens, fades and draws off the tee with irons on most par-4s, and big benders with everything from wedges to 3-wood from fairways. And it was almost on every hole. I think it was just overdone and corridors were way too narrow throughout the course. As with most parts when it comes to course design, I think that less is more.

Same with the elevation...I'd recommend looking at a course that was recently released called "Starlight Basin". It has dramatic elevation, but it feels much more natural and you can see everything in front of you. You still can be asked to hit a variety of shots, but the way it's set up does not force you into certain clubs or shot shapes. Plus, the way the elevation was done on your course caused for lots of blindness and very harsh sculpting.

As far as planting goes...I think it was OK. I did notice some odd grasses planted in spots, and some were actually planted on light rough and fairway here and there. Some trees and bushes were also made quite large and that was noticeable. None of it was really a major issue or anything...I think some of the technical things are more important to focus on than planting. I will also say that some planting around the tee boxes did impact sightlines as well, making the already narrow corridors feel even more tight.

[stymie72]

Ok. Thanks for all the feedback. I'll try to consider much of this on the next one...   see how it goes.  Cheers!