Advice for Making a Short Course Difficult

[fergdawg]

Hi all! I'm working on a plot for a new course called "The Wee Dirty B@st@rd". It's inspired by a course I did way back in the original Golf Club game. The idea is that it's a short but difficult course playing no longer than 7000 yard from the back tees (it's in its infancy, but it's somewhere around 6500 from the tee set currently). No par 4 longer than 450, no par 5 longer than 550 and no par 3 longer than 200.

I've bunkered the crap out of it and there are a few elevation changes, but I'm just wondering if anyone has any advice for how to make a short course play hard. I want it to be a challenge (hence the name) and fairly penal. Haven't added any water yet, but that may be coming.

If anyone has any pointers, I'd love to hear em!

[sroel908]

Dec 18, 2023 14:31:14 GMT -5 fergdawg said:

Hi all! I'm working on a plot for a new course called "The Wee Dirty B@st@rd". It's inspired by a course I did way back in the original Golf Club game. The idea is that it's a short but difficult course playing no longer than 7000 yard from the back tees (it's in its infancy, but it's somewhere around 6500 from the tee set currently). No par 4 longer than 450, no par 5 longer than 550 and no par 3 longer than 200.

I've bunkered the crap out of it and there are a few elevation changes, but I'm just wondering if anyone has any advice for how to make a short course play hard. I want it to be a challenge (hence the name) and fairly penal. Haven't added any water yet, but that may be coming.

If anyone has any pointers, I'd love to hear em!

I'd look at Bryn Awelon (P) for some ideas. It's 6,342 yards from the tips and was used as a Promo course last season.

[albinobluesheep]

"short course"

Dec 18, 2023 14:31:14 GMT -5 fergdawg said:

playing no longer than 7000 yard from the back tees

I thought you were going to be saying 6500 yards or less! We need to roll back the damn ball! Will PGA2k28 incorporate the roll back I wonder?

This weeks CC course by b101  (Greenmont CC) is just a few yards short of 7000 and did NOT feel easy.

[fergdawg]

Dec 18, 2023 17:51:52 GMT -5 albinobluesheep said:

"short course"

Dec 18, 2023 14:31:14 GMT -5 fergdawg said:

playing no longer than 7000 yard from the back tees

I thought you were going to be saying 6500 yards or less! We need to roll back the damn ball! Will PGA2k28 incorporate the roll back I wonder?

This weeks CC course by b101  (Greenmont CC) is just a few yards short of 7000 and did NOT feel easy.

It might end up being less than 6500. It's super hard to make a shorter course play hard in this game, but I'm trying. Already laid out the first 25 or so bunkers of probably 100!

[fergdawg]

Dec 18, 2023 17:51:52 GMT -5 albinobluesheep said:

"short course"

Dec 18, 2023 14:31:14 GMT -5 fergdawg said:

playing no longer than 7000 yard from the back tees

I thought you were going to be saying 6500 yards or less! We need to roll back the damn ball! Will PGA2k28 incorporate the roll back I wonder?

This weeks CC course by b101  (Greenmont CC) is just a few yards short of 7000 and did NOT feel easy.

I also agree, they need to make it more like the amateur experience. Even if there was a different setting for playing amateur distance or something. I sure as sh%$ don't carry the ball 294 irl, and I'm a low single digit handicap!

[albinobluesheep]

I'm currently rebuilding a 9 hole course from 1931. When ever I do a play through to test it I play 1 round with my full bag, and then one round with no more than my 7i to try and recreate how far they were hitting it back then (though the transition to the rubber core ball, there was a jump from them hitting it 160-200 to 220-260)

I honestly wish 2k23 had a "hickory mode" to make a bunch of older courses relevant again.

I sure as sh%$ don't carry the ball 294 irl, and I'm a low single digit handicap!

Same, friend...same...though...I'm a low teens HCP. I do hit the hell out of the ball...but I do not hit the ball THAT far.

I have a few times wished there was a "input your own club yardages" option so I could "play" a course I had never played before with my IRL yardages and see how I would fare. 

hell, I wish I could do that for Playing Allenmore or Gold Mountain, which I HAVE played in real life but with my own yardages.

[paddyjk19]

I wouldn’t worry about making it super hard per se, the best shorter courses are full of shotmaking options and decisions which is why Golden age courses are so well regarded.

My favourite holes are 320-390 par 4s that have 3-4 options for how you play the hole, the thinking part is enjoyable and if there’s risk reward with penalties it’s even better.

That said, you should make it a par 69 and aim for 2 par 5s and five par 3’s, this will allow you to have a range of distances on your 3s but will also give you scope for a couple of longer 4s for balance.

A couple of real courses I’ve published that fit this brief are West Hill Golf Club and St Enodoc Golf Club, both are TGCT tournament courses and are both par 69 and <6600 yards so should fit your brief nicely for inspiration

[fergdawg]

Dec 18, 2023 23:26:06 GMT -5 albinobluesheep said:

I'm currently rebuilding a 9 hole course from 1931. When ever I do a play through to test it I play 1 round with my full bag, and then one round with no more than my 7i to try and recreate how far they were hitting it back then (though the transition to the rubber core ball, there was a jump from them hitting it 160-200 to 220-260)

I honestly wish 2k23 had a "hickory mode" to make a bunch of older courses relevant again.

I sure as sh%$ don't carry the ball 294 irl, and I'm a low single digit handicap!

Same, friend...same...though...I'm a low teens HCP. I do hit the hell out of the ball...but I do not hit the ball THAT far.

I have a few times wished there was a "input your own club yardages" option so I could "play" a course I had never played before with my IRL yardages and see how I would fare. 

hell, I wish I could do that for Playing Allenmore or Gold Mountain, which I HAVE played in real life but with my own yardages.

I so wish this was a thing! When I play my designs from more forward tees, I'll usually handicap myself to only play a 4 hybrid or 5 wood max to simulate a 220-240 yd drive that I would expect from a person playing the forward tees.

Thanks for the advice!

[fergdawg]

Dec 19, 2023 5:59:57 GMT -5 paddyjk19 said:

I wouldn’t worry about making it super hard per se, the best shorter courses are full of shotmaking options and decisions which is why Golden age courses are so well regarded.

My favourite holes are 320-390 par 4s that have 3-4 options for how you play the hole, the thinking part is enjoyable and if there’s risk reward with penalties it’s even better.

That said, you should make it a par 69 and aim for 2 par 5s and five par 3’s, this will allow you to have a range of distances on your 3s but will also give you scope for a couple of longer 4s for balance.

A couple of real courses I’ve published that fit this brief are West Hill Golf Club and St Enodoc Golf Club, both are TGCT tournament courses and are both par 69 and <6600 yards so should fit your brief nicely for inspiration

Yeah, that's totally fair. I think this is really good advice, to make a strategic course with multiple plays possible per hole. I also like the advice on pars and overall par. I'm trying to shoot for 70. I just released a course recently called Ianthe River which was an updated version of a course I made in 2k21. It's a par 70 with 6 par 3s, 4 par 5s and 8 par 4s. It's probably not my best work, but I really like the variety of the pars. Some of my other courses lack that a bit, simply because I'm not amazing at making interesting par 5s so i kind of stay away from them.

Thanks so much everyone for the sage advice. I'm gonna give those courses a play and perhaps start over, because the plot and routing I was using just wasn't working.

Cheers!

[paddyjk19]

Jan 7, 2024 23:34:24 GMT -5 fergdawg said:

Dec 19, 2023 5:59:57 GMT -5 paddyjk19 said:

I wouldn’t worry about making it super hard per se, the best shorter courses are full of shotmaking options and decisions which is why Golden age courses are so well regarded.

My favourite holes are 320-390 par 4s that have 3-4 options for how you play the hole, the thinking part is enjoyable and if there’s risk reward with penalties it’s even better.

That said, you should make it a par 69 and aim for 2 par 5s and five par 3’s, this will allow you to have a range of distances on your 3s but will also give you scope for a couple of longer 4s for balance.

A couple of real courses I’ve published that fit this brief are West Hill Golf Club and St Enodoc Golf Club, both are TGCT tournament courses and are both par 69 and <6600 yards so should fit your brief nicely for inspiration

Yeah, that's totally fair. I think this is really good advice, to make a strategic course with multiple plays possible per hole. I also like the advice on pars and overall par. I'm trying to shoot for 70. I just released a course recently called Ianthe River which was an updated version of a course I made in 2k21. It's a par 70 with 6 par 3s, 4 par 5s and 8 par 4s. It's probably not my best work, but I really like the variety of the pars. Some of my other courses lack that a bit, simply because I'm not amazing at making interesting par 5s so i kind of stay away from them.

Thanks so much everyone for the sage advice. I'm gonna give those courses a play and perhaps start over, because the plot and routing I was using just wasn't working.

Cheers!

With Par 5s I personally prefer them to be like drivable par 4s - the best ones have that risk and reward heroic option.

You can’t go wrong looking at Augusta’s par 5s, they’re 4 of the best going;

2nd: draw required, if executed you’re left with an iron and an eagle opportunity, if you don’t execute the draw you hit the bunker and a layup is forced. The green complex is such that even with an iron for your second, you have to use the contours to get close and missing in the wrong spot means birdie is out of the question despite having an iron in.

8th hole: longer uphill par 5 with green tucked away in the left corner. To reach in two the player has to hug the right FW bunker and then chase one through the opening which if they do it’s a great eagle opportunity. If the player lays up they have to execute this well due to the mounding around the green, if they miss the lay up they may have a blind shot with a downslope between them and the flag, the green is multi level which also means missing on the wrong side can be problematic.

13th hole: enough said, short par 5 brilliant risk reward, can yield 3 or 7, must execute draw to reach in two, third shot after laying up very challenging.

15th: longer par 5, reachable in two but water in front, green contours make going long an almost impossible up and down. To land in two requires perfect distance control. If bad drive the layup is challenging and leaves a horrible short wedge with onus on spin control.

If you try and incorporate any of these into your par 5s you’ll be fine!

In short; reachable, layup requires strategy, chance for both eagle and double bogey. Don’t be afraid of a short par 5, they’re the best if there is risk and ample reward

[metatropic]

One thing I’ve noticed Coore and Crenshaw do on their shorter par 5s is to make the green really small and hard to hold, so it prefers to receive a pitched 3rd shot rather than a low 2nd. Examples are the 7th and 10th at Old Sandwich.  You can then have run-offs into trouble that will punish an errant second, but won’t trouble the pitch shot. Another thing they do is to force a less than full drive off the tee (10th at Old Sandwich). Personally I think that’s a bit of a cheat….

[fergdawg]

Jan 8, 2024 12:20:07 GMT -5 metatropic said:

One thing I’ve noticed Coore and Crenshaw do on their shorter par 5s is to make the green really small and hard to hold, so it prefers to receive a pitched 3rd shot rather than a low 2nd. Examples are the 7th and 10th at Old Sandwich.  You can then have run-offs into trouble that will punish an errant second, but won’t trouble the pitch shot. Another thing they do is to force a less than full drive off the tee (10th at Old Sandwich). Personally I think that’s a bit of a cheat….

I've definitely done the pinching driver tactic. One of the best par 5s (in concept) that I've made is the 14th at Moynihan Lake Preserve. It's a semi-pinched drive, semi-hogs back fairway between two giant sloping bunkers. You either have to thread the needle and hit the top of the back, launch it over everything to fairway beyond, or lay up short of the bunkers and accept a 3 shot hole. It's a 70 ish yard difference between the fairway past the bunkers and the fairway short. If you thread the needle or get over the trouble, it's a pretty nice second shot in and chance for eagle. But if you hit the bunker, or lay up short, there's almost no chance to get there in two.

Only thing with that one is that there's no huge risk on the second. If you make the drive it's a pretty guaranteed eagle or birdie.

I like the Coore Crenshaw approach with mounding around the green to make any pitch around it impossible.

PS. I absolutely love your courses dude. You're one of my favorites in the game for sure.

[fergdawg]

Jan 8, 2024 7:15:40 GMT -5 paddyjk19 said:

Jan 7, 2024 23:34:24 GMT -5 fergdawg said:

Yeah, that's totally fair. I think this is really good advice, to make a strategic course with multiple plays possible per hole. I also like the advice on pars and overall par. I'm trying to shoot for 70. I just released a course recently called Ianthe River which was an updated version of a course I made in 2k21. It's a par 70 with 6 par 3s, 4 par 5s and 8 par 4s. It's probably not my best work, but I really like the variety of the pars. Some of my other courses lack that a bit, simply because I'm not amazing at making interesting par 5s so i kind of stay away from them.

Thanks so much everyone for the sage advice. I'm gonna give those courses a play and perhaps start over, because the plot and routing I was using just wasn't working.

Cheers!

With Par 5s I personally prefer them to be like drivable par 4s - the best ones have that risk and reward heroic option.

You can’t go wrong looking at Augusta’s par 5s, they’re 4 of the best going;

2nd: draw required, if executed you’re left with an iron and an eagle opportunity, if you don’t execute the draw you hit the bunker and a layup is forced. The green complex is such that even with an iron for your second, you have to use the contours to get close and missing in the wrong spot means birdie is out of the question despite having an iron in.

8th hole: longer uphill par 5 with green tucked away in the left corner. To reach in two the player has to hug the right FW bunker and then chase one through the opening which if they do it’s a great eagle opportunity. If the player lays up they have to execute this well due to the mounding around the green, if they miss the lay up they may have a blind shot with a downslope between them and the flag, the green is multi level which also means missing on the wrong side can be problematic.

13th hole: enough said, short par 5 brilliant risk reward, can yield 3 or 7, must execute draw to reach in two, third shot after laying up very challenging.

15th: longer par 5, reachable in two but water in front, green contours make going long an almost impossible up and down. To land in two requires perfect distance control. If bad drive the layup is challenging and leaves a horrible short wedge with onus on spin control.

If you try and incorporate any of these into your par 5s you’ll be fine!

In short; reachable, layup requires strategy, chance for both eagle and double bogey. Don’t be afraid of a short par 5, they’re the best if there is risk and ample reward

Excellent advice. Cheers!

[sirdumas]

Difficult greens are the way to go. Real courses like Merion East (7000yds), Crystal Downs (6500), Shoreacres (6700) and Kingsley Club (6800) are all difficult and have crazy greens. All are in game designed by theclv24. Search Frankfort Downs for Crystal Downs.