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Post by mmallahan on Nov 23, 2023 11:51:43 GMT -5
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Post by norselaed on Nov 25, 2023 7:09:31 GMT -5
Happy Thanksgiving.
I found this forum for exchanging ideas about courses before they are published a few weeks ago and really like the idea of being able to get other opinions and work out the kinks before publication. I feel if I am going to ask other designers to review my work, it’s only fair I do some reviews for them as well. Full disclosure: I have only published one course and am working on my second and since I moved to the master level I normally shoot between 5 over and 5 under, so both my skills as a designer and my ability as a golfer are a little suspect.
That being said, lets get on with my first review: I played on the back tees and default pins and set the wind speed to low, so I could concentrate just on the layout and play ability. You had some nice infrastructure and plantings started, but I have ignored them since you mentioned having a lot left to do on those areas. I assume you are going to go back and cleanup cart paths and bridges and finish all those things out. I’ll start off by mentioning a few things that I noticed multiple times and then give a few things that are hole specific.
Greens: I thought most of your greens were of a good size and shape. You had some nice backstops and curves for the approach shots to follow and pin placement was fine. I also appreciated the fact the greens were responsive to spin since some courses I have played don’t seem to be. There were a few that violated the 9 square guideline that TGC follows. As I understand it, you can’t have any yellow, orange or red in the square the pin is in and the eight squares around it. Holes 1 and 10 have yellow and orange in the squares and several others were borderline. The green speeds are very high and 2K23 greens roll so much, I would definitely tame some of the green slopes down a little. Most of the pins are near the outer edges of the green and can be very difficult to hold since most green edges run off sharply. Example, I hit what I thought were great approach shots on 4 to the front pin location and used the backstop and it rolled back and right off the front edge every time. Flattening the area around the pin would mitigate that a lot.
Rocks: I love rocks, they maybe my favorite design feature and you have some nice rock work in many places. I really like the cliffs you did along 7 and 8. Unfortunately, rocks can also be the most penal of hazards since they send the balls shooting out all over the place. For that reason, I try to avoid using them real close to landing areas of fairways or greens, as even a small miss can have disastrous results. The rocks right close to the landing area on 1 and around the greens on 1, 13 and 14 might be better a little further away.
Fairway around greens: I noticed you like to use fairways around your greens in spots. While this can be a fine feature on a course, I have a few questions on some of the holes. On holes 5 and 6, the fairways go down into the water in sections. I know this is to make sure shots go to the water and I have seen it done on other courses, but I am not a fan. It doesn’t look right or natural to me. If you are building a fantasy course then pretty much anything goes, but if you are trying to build a natural realistic course then how would a greens crew even mow those sharp slopes. Maybe that is getting a little nit picky, but it just doesn’t look right to me. Water is almost always going to have some plantings and taller grasses near the water edge and it just seems a little overly penal for a small miss. On hole 7 there is sliver of fairway behind the green and nowhere else around the hole that just doesn’t seem to fit in to me. Hole 5 has the bailout area that is very large and the center is 50 yards away from the green on an 187 yard par 3. Not many people are going to layup down there and I would maybe expand and flatten out the bailout area along the front right of green and cut down the size of the sand traps to make room for it and get rid of the fairway so far from the green.
Hole layouts: I like the general layout of the course and the decisions the golfer is forced to make off the tee and on approach shots, but I do think some of the could be tamed down a little. The driver is removed as an option for most people on at least 7 or 8 holes. On hole 3, I don’t understand the intended shots off the tee. The layup is wider and flatter then the driver option which is normal, but it is also closer to the green. Why would a person go for a harder shot off the tee, if there is no reward for it except maybe a slightly better angle into green. Maybe the layup landing area could be tightened up and made harder to hit and the driver landing area could be made wider and flatter to justify hitting a longer approach shot. Hole 16 has a similar, if not so glaring problem, of the layup shot being just as easy as the driver and with a comparable approach shot so why go for the longer drive. Hole 6 is drivable, but it didn’t tempt me to take a chance on it all. With fairway to the water edge and the green oriented with a tougher approach shot then from the layup area, there really wasn’t any thought of going for it. Perhaps reorienting the green so it lined up with tee would tempt a person to give it a shot although it would still require a very accurate drive. Holes 7, 9, 11, 12, 16 and 18 all had very narrow driver landing area or required just the right wind conditions to realistically have a chance of hitting a driver. I agree with the concept of making driving landing areas narrower, but some are a little unrealistic. Hole 12 has an interesting boulder field that I don’t quite understand since there is nothing else like it anywhere. The line of sight isn’t great since the boulders block the fairway view completely and you can only see a little of the pin on the green. The purpose of the boulder field and layout may become more obvious as you develop it. The boulders also partially block the view of waterfalls from the green. Hole 7 had a nice view from the tee, but the driver landing area was so narrow it was little more than a path. If you did make it to the lower area of the fairway, you would be faced with a slightly shorter, but uphill approach shot. Again, I wonder if the is a good risk/reward scenario. This upper fairway or layup area is heavily cantered and could use a little flattening around the left side of fairway. Several of the other fairways were a little steep on the falloff along the outer edge and could use a little softening. Again, this is probably a little nit picky, but you had 3 holes that went uphill for a total of 25 ft. and 15 holes that were flat or downhill for a total of -458 ft. which seems a little unrealistic since you start and finish at the clubhouse area. I know it isn’t really a factor in computer golf, but I just notice such things.
Well there you have it, my first review of another designers course. I hope you find some of my observations useful as you move forward on designing this course. I did enjoy playing the course and I think you have the start of a very nice course. I look forward to playing the finished product when you get it done. Please post the name of the finished course in this thread so I can find it when you complete it.
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Post by mmallahan on Nov 25, 2023 13:27:14 GMT -5
Thanks for the feedback! Very good points all around. I'll be implementing them as I continue to work on this.
A few responses to your points made: Fairways bleeding into water... I thought the same thing about how the greens crew would even cut that grass, but that was a suggestion to do by another designer. I've already raised the ground a smidge around the water to give a small band of land between the fairway and the water so that has been implemented now. The boulder wall on hole 12 is a man-made dam, and it's only 50% finished at the moment so when it's done, it will look more like a real one but the point of that hole was to be a blind drive to some extent and to be a unique hole. I agree about not being able to see the waterfalls from the green... I'll try to fix that. And the 3wood/driver landing options on the holes you mentioned were intentional as some would just grab a driver and smack away but if they take the time to analyze strategy, they may find a better approach is rewarded by taking the 3wood/shorter club. They can still crush a drive but have a worse angle. Maybe I just need to create a more inviting driver landing area if that's what I gather you were saying.
I'll be making changes and will post a new Beta in the coming couple of weeks and would hope I could get you to take one last look at it. But appreciate you taking the time to review and give your extensive feedback, thank you!
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Post by norselaed on Nov 26, 2023 16:43:06 GMT -5
Your welcome for my review and I am glad you found it useful. I agree that fairway bleeding into water is a legitimate design feature in this game, but it just looks kinda weird to me and therefore I am not a real big fan. This is your course and you need to do what you feel is best. I understand that the landing options were intentional and it is a great design feature, I just question the risk/reward on a few of the holes where the layup seemed to offer a better, or comparable, reward than the riskier driver landing option. I would be happy to play another beta version when you get it ready. I will try to monitor this thread for your message of a new beta unless you know of a better way of direct messaging me. Good luck with course.
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