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Post by abpg1812 on Jun 22, 2023 12:17:25 GMT -5
I recently played streamsong’s black course which was designed by Gil Hanse. It was a phenomenal experience overall but the 9th hole is a relatively long (450 yards) par 4 with what I would consider a severe punch bowl green. The pin is totally invisible from the tee box and fairway as the green is elevated about 20 feet higher than the fuse way. You rely on a marker on the tee to tell you what quadrant the hole is in. My question is and I would love the thoughts of anyone really, is a totally blind punch bowl too much. Should the top of the flag at least be visible? Obviously any shot too the green will stay due to the design but without any sight of the flag it still seems to be somewhat a guessing game. Like I said any thoughts on this would be much appreciated. Overall I did like the hole design and the course in general but this is the one hole I still am not sure about.
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Post by axelvonfersen on Jun 22, 2023 14:06:48 GMT -5
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Post by abpg1812 on Jun 22, 2023 14:21:22 GMT -5
Thanks for posting the article, great insight indeed.
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Post by b101 on Jun 22, 2023 16:28:32 GMT -5
Think I've only played the one true punchbowl (3rd at Burnham and Berrow), but it's one of my all-time favourite holes. So many different ways to play it depending on how confident you feel that day, and there's a great feeling when you crest the hill and see the ball near the hole. They also get trickier the closer you are to the edge of the green. One of the things I love about them is that good shots can be turned into great shots and they offer the chance of great recovery shots, but there's also always some really interesting ways to get the ball close and potentially challenging shots if you go just off. www.burnhamandberrowgolfclub.co.uk/course/course-tour/championship/hole/3/
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Post by abpg1812 on Jun 22, 2023 17:50:28 GMT -5
Think I've only played the one true punchbowl (3rd at Burnham and Berrow), but it's one of my all-time favourite holes. So many different ways to play it depending on how confident you feel that day, and there's a great feeling when you crest the hill and see the ball near the hole. They also get trickier the closer you are to the edge of the green. One of the things I love about them is that good shots can be turned into great shots and they offer the chance of great recovery shots, but there's also always some really interesting ways to get the ball close and potentially challenging shots if you go just off. www.burnhamandberrowgolfclub.co.uk/course/course-tour/championship/hole/3/Really appreciate the input b101. This was also my first time playing a true punch bowl and I can totally agree on the excitement factor. I just played to the center number but was still very excited to crest the top and see where I ended up. After hearing yourself and axel’s great addition of the fried egg article on them I totally see the balance of the hole. Yes it is a blind hole, but with the hole naturally feeding balls which may be off line back to the center I think it’s a really great balance. Thanks again for the input.
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Post by b101 on Jun 23, 2023 0:30:40 GMT -5
Oh, plenty aren't blind - that's the Alps/Punchbowl sort of combination which Raynor and MacDonald popularised, but agree that the combination works nicely. Quite old videos but the below might be useful and are part of a bigger series:
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Post by abpg1812 on Jun 23, 2023 9:23:50 GMT -5
Love the template videos b101, they are a valuable resource when it comes to sorting through the important aspects of hole design. The alps, punch bowl combo is a great design that’s used in a multitude of ways from everything I’ve gathered. I’ve incorporated two punch bowls into my course designs and neither had the alps aspect to it, I will definitely be adding it into a course where it fits. Overall it seems the punch bowl is a dynamic aspect of hole design that can be utilized in a multitude of ways from varying yardages and coupled with other template designs, (alps, narrows, cape?)
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Post by bubbadave on Jun 23, 2023 11:07:09 GMT -5
Wasn't the 4th on Royal Ethalwind in 2K21 a punch bowl? I seem to remember it had very steep sides.
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Post by abpg1812 on Jun 23, 2023 11:55:25 GMT -5
Wasn't the 4th on Royal Ethalwind in 2K21 a punch bowl? I seem to remember it had very steep sides. Thanks for hopping in bubbadave, I do believe it was a variation of a punch bowl, I think I remember the front of the green being a somewhat flat entrance but the surrounding sides did have the punch bowl effect. Articfury did a masterful job on it so, he would be the one to explain his thoughts on that hole.
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