Sag Harbor Field Club

[waldo]

Hey everyone! So after trying and failing in the Rookie Design I’ve been working on a new course and this time I would like to seek out feedback so I can try and improve as a designer. With past designs it seems like my biggest issues have been going too over the top whether that be with overall sculpting, bunkers or hole design. The goal of this course was to tone it all down and create less fantasy like course.

It’s set in Long Island, NY and is an ode to the golden age with templates and a little geometric. A few of the holes are replicas I hope you recognize.

The beta is published under:

“BETA SHFC V2”

Certain buildings aren’t completely laid out yet and I’m still debating on what planting looks best but overall course is complete. Please let me know what you think and thanks in advance for taking the time to play!

Waldo

[waldo]

Also thank you to sroel908 for already taking the time to playthrough the first version and letting me know where to improve!

[fargo]

Hey Waldo, all in all i think you've done a really good job of this so far, lots of the sculpting (especially bunkers) and surfacing is a step up from Hallstatt. I imagine you're planning to do a bit more planting, especially off- course, so I won't comment on that, except to say what's there now looks nice. Lots of the templates are executed well. A few thoughts:

1 I don't love the windmil. I think it's a little strange that the fairway bunker on the left is set in the rough and the one on the right is flush with the fairway. I also think if you want to go with bunkers flush with the fairway the splines could be tightened up, if you look at the far end of the right fairway bunker you'll see the fairway striking the bunker fairly abruptly, you can move the fairway spline to the left a little to get it lined up a little more naturally. But let's are sculpted well and I do like the hole design.

2 looks good. You've got a big bunker complex 2/3 of the way down the hole which looks pretty good but very few people are going to see it - there's no problem with that but just seems like A bit of a waste of time building that.

3 much better biarritz green than your last hole - in Hallstatt it was a huge drop which means the ball stops quickly and so you don't get any ground game. A biarritz should test your distance control with a ball that runs along the ground, so this one works. It's a better scale too. I wonder if you can work on the sculpting of the bunker on the right so you can see it better?

4 nice hole

5 good, the backstop works well for the back hole location

6 blind tee shot. I feel at least that first L shaped bunker should be visible. Second shot is fairly blind too - from the centre of the fairway you can't really make out either of those two bunkers on the left.

7 good hole. I think my issue with the windmill is - it doesn't really look like it belongs there.

8 bunker short left is not visible, I think the hole would look better if you dropped the land in front of it a bit so you can see it. The bunker doesn't really have a strategic purpose (as even a layup will fly over it easily) so it's only really there to add visual appeal - so you really should make it visible. Should the clubhouse be OB to the right of the green?

10 this is the same drive as hole 4, I'm aiming to the same landing area from a very similar tee, and then I'm playing my second shot almost over the 4th green, which is a little weird. And the bunkers which serve a purpose for hole 4 block out any view of the green. I'm not particularly fond of this hole.

11 nice hole

12 I think the bridge is a bit weird. I don't think a golf course would construct a hege elevated causeway like that when there's an obvious path around just to the right (where the bridge's shadow is). Then that second bridge up by the green is a little outlandish too.

13 and 14 are both good holes, but again those bridges are a little too much for me, and not really in keeping with the course up to these last few holes.

15 and 16 are good

17 I think the church is a little too
close

18 nice hole

[waldo]

Thank you for taking the time to play through and make your observations! Glad to hear the sculpting is a step up from Hallstatt! I’ll work on these changes, still struggling with how to make a routing flow like I would want it to not sure how. Yeah I’m still debating what the outer areas of the plot’s planting would look like. Yeah hole 10 might be a re-do I thought it was cool at first but could see how it gimmicky or just weird. I’ll have to figure out what to do with the bridges too lol

I’m gonna take my time with this one and slowly work on it. Hoping to get as much feedback as I can so I can improve the course and myself overall. Again, really appreciate you taking the time to do this!

All the Best,
Waldo

[waldo]

So after some help from fargo (how do I tag people in posts?) on how to post pictures I'm gonna give it a go.

Here are some photos to hopefully get people interested in trying out the course. I've already begun making some changes (all bridges and the windmill have been axed) Hope you guys can come by and try it out! Let me know what you think!

Waldo

[waldo]

Hey all,

Been continuing to improve the course and work on different ideas. Would anyone be interested in giving it a go?

Let me know and I’ll post an updated beta.

Thanks!

Waldo

[waldo]

Hey everyone,

So after continuing to improve the course I feel like it's almost ready to go. A little back story, in the past I've designed courses that're too extreme, fantasy like, with too much elevation and poor sculpting all around. I've always been good at creating a hole's design and environment in my head but I lacked the proper skills and knowledge to execute it. With this design I tried to see if I could create a course that would garner some merit from all of you awesome designers on here. I've been diving deep and have watched about every b101 video I can and along with some help from people here on the board I hope I am getting close with this course. 

This is my third beta I've posted of Sag Harbor Field Club. Set in Long Island, NY, I tried to execute as many templates as I could and to create a variety of holes that relied on angles. The beta is called "BETA SHFC V3". Hopefully some of you have time to check it out and provide feedback, which was also one of the goals with this course. By learning from you guys whether it be through a playthrough of my course or someone else's I can hopefully begin to better myself as a designer. Thank you all for your help.

All the Best,
Waldo

Here are some updates pics below:

[shane2sweet1]

I'm no expert reviewer but I really enjoyed my round. I really like uniqueness in a course and some of your greens are fun and unique. I liked 15, that was my favorite hole.

[waldo]

May 1, 2023 19:54:15 GMT -5 shane2sweet1 said:

I'm no expert reviewer but I really enjoyed my round. I really like uniqueness in a course and some of your greens are fun and unique. I liked 15, that was my favorite hole.

Awesome! Glad to hear! Yeah I really enjoyed that hole could be my favorite as well.

[mooz]

Writing this up as I play my round. For reference, my driver only hits 278 so I went with the middle (blue) tees, first pin set, all other settings default.

My Thoughts:

1. Feel like the bushes just short of the green (left of the two fairway-splitting bunkers) aren't doing you any favors by blocking the view of the green. It's a minor thing, but it's nice to have a sightline at the green when you can IMO.
2. Love the hole design and the village setting. The bushes/sunken trees surrounding the green seem GIGANTIC to me, might need some adjusting.
3. Biarritz, love it!
4. I'm assuming you're going for a lion's mouth here, and I can see some of the bunkering in the middle is to help separate this hole from 10. I'm wondering if maybe just removing one or two bunkers there might make the angle for left pins more gettable? I had a right pin on mine so it didn't matter, but if I had a left pin I think finding that angle would be nigh impossible with the number of bunkers out left.
5. Love this one, especially the pair of bunkers left that form a roll-out hazard.
6. This might just be me, but I really don't "get" this hole, other than as a fairly straightforward 3-shot par 5 (which is fine if that's what you're going for). I could just be missing what the challenge/question is.
7. Seems alright, some might have an issue with the false-front given the length but personally I think it's an alright challenge.
8. No comment here, alright hole
9. Same
10. After playing this, I do think I'd consider what I said about 4 - maybe just removing the right half of those clusters of middle bunkers? I see the line of play you're trying to defend, cutting the par 5 close, but I think maybe it's a bit overprotected.
11. Gorgeous look off the tee, sadly with the wind I had the second fairway wasn't an option but the hole is great.
12. Love this hole as well. Again, some of the bushes off the green/near the lighthouse seem a tad big, but I love the greensight and overall look of this hole.
13. Cape hole I'm assuming. Looks alright, not sure what I'd change 
14. We have our short. Bunkering looks nice, you pull off that minimalist style well. The teebox needs flattening (one of my tee markers was floating!) and I kinda wish we could see more of the planting you've done down in the canyon below - would really help add to the beauty of the hole.
15. Back to back par 3's? Fun! I'm also a big fan of the redan/kicker slope idea so this always makes me happy to see. I kinda like the bunker long making me think a bit more before I just hit at the slope.
16. Wowee that falloff back. Personally I like it, I'm not 100% sure whether doing that along with the thin green AND fronting bunkers is too much? Maybe over protecting par at that point, but I could be wrong.
17. Very fun road hole even despite me getting a double bogey.
18. Well now that's definitely an interesting finisher. You might get some flack for the cart path running the fairway - and that green is definitely a statement. I imagine you're maybe pulling from Winged Foot 18? (Stairstep up to the clubhouse idea). I'm fine with the false-front, I worry about having that AND the back tier though. Especially given b101's hole thing about "slope-to-slope" designs in this game almost always leading to putts just rollercoastering off greens. If you want the difficulty though, go for it! Just something to keep in mind.

Overall, I like this! The setting is very well done, planting looks great and you've done a pretty good job with the minimalist bunker look. Most holes I think have pretty strong ideas, just a few here and there where I personally might have made different choices but I hope my feedback helps!

[waldo]

May 2, 2023 10:19:07 GMT -5 mooz said:

Writing this up as I play my round. For reference, my driver only hits 278 so I went with the middle (blue) tees, first pin set, all other settings default.

My Thoughts:

1. Feel like the bushes just short of the green (left of the two fairway-splitting bunkers) aren't doing you any favors by blocking the view of the green. It's a minor thing, but it's nice to have a sightline at the green when you can IMO.
2. Love the hole design and the village setting. The bushes/sunken trees surrounding the green seem GIGANTIC to me, might need some adjusting.
3. Biarritz, love it!
4. I'm assuming you're going for a lion's mouth here, and I can see some of the bunkering in the middle is to help separate this hole from 10. I'm wondering if maybe just removing one or two bunkers there might make the angle for left pins more gettable? I had a right pin on mine so it didn't matter, but if I had a left pin I think finding that angle would be nigh impossible with the number of bunkers out left.
5. Love this one, especially the pair of bunkers left that form a roll-out hazard.
6. This might just be me, but I really don't "get" this hole, other than as a fairly straightforward 3-shot par 5 (which is fine if that's what you're going for). I could just be missing what the challenge/question is.
7. Seems alright, some might have an issue with the false-front given the length but personally I think it's an alright challenge.
8. No comment here, alright hole
9. Same
10. After playing this, I do think I'd consider what I said about 4 - maybe just removing the right half of those clusters of middle bunkers? I see the line of play you're trying to defend, cutting the par 5 close, but I think maybe it's a bit overprotected.
11. Gorgeous look off the tee, sadly with the wind I had the second fairway wasn't an option but the hole is great.
12. Love this hole as well. Again, some of the bushes off the green/near the lighthouse seem a tad big, but I love the greensight and overall look of this hole.
13. Cape hole I'm assuming. Looks alright, not sure what I'd change 
14. We have our short. Bunkering looks nice, you pull off that minimalist style well. The teebox needs flattening (one of my tee markers was floating!) and I kinda wish we could see more of the planting you've done down in the canyon below - would really help add to the beauty of the hole.
15. Back to back par 3's? Fun! I'm also a big fan of the redan/kicker slope idea so this always makes me happy to see. I kinda like the bunker long making me think a bit more before I just hit at the slope.
16. Wowee that falloff back. Personally I like it, I'm not 100% sure whether doing that along with the thin green AND fronting bunkers is too much? Maybe over protecting par at that point, but I could be wrong.
17. Very fun road hole even despite me getting a double bogey.
18. Well now that's definitely an interesting finisher. You might get some flack for the cart path running the fairway - and that green is definitely a statement. I imagine you're maybe pulling from Winged Foot 18? (Stairstep up to the clubhouse idea). I'm fine with the false-front, I worry about having that AND the back tier though. Especially given b101's hole thing about "slope-to-slope" designs in this game almost always leading to putts just rollercoastering off greens. If you want the difficulty though, go for it! Just something to keep in mind.

Overall, I like this! The setting is very well done, planting looks great and you've done a pretty good job with the minimalist bunker look. Most holes I think have pretty strong ideas, just a few here and there where I personally might have made different choices but I hope my feedback helps!

Appreciate the playthrough glad to hear you enjoyed! Funny enough after posting I noticed actually two boxes were not flattened(12,14). I'm guilty of play testing from the backs too much.

Yes I've been battling 4 and 10. Trying to give the opportunity left to access the left pins while also defending the shorter route on 10. Still trying to find that balance.

6 - It's loosely based on a Raynor course here in NJ(Hole 14 at Watchung Valley). For me it's typically reachable but only by challenging the bunkers right that pinch in on the OB left. Or you can lay back and commit to a 3 shoter. 

14,15 - Yes! I loved the setting and design thought for the two of them so I went for the bold back to back 3's. Figured they had to be really good 3's to do it and I think I pulled it off.

16 - The thought was by taking on the right carry and going right of the bunkers you'd have an angle straight up the narrow green. While going the safer route off the tee left you'd be left with a little longer and much more difficult angle to hold the green.

18 - I've grown attached to the road haha I think of it as a coming home sort of feeling but can definitely see those questioning it. The thought was since the tee shot had so much room I would step up the green's difficulty but yeah that false front is aggressive haha

Really appreciate the playthrough all help is welcome! Thanks for taking the time to play the course and to write down your thoughts!

All the Best,
Waldo

[paddyjk19]

May 2, 2023 10:19:07 GMT -5 mooz said:

Writing this up as I play my round. For reference, my driver only hits 278 so I went with the middle (blue) tees, first pin set, all other settings default.

My Thoughts:

1. Feel like the bushes just short of the green (left of the two fairway-splitting bunkers) aren't doing you any favors by blocking the view of the green. It's a minor thing, but it's nice to have a sightline at the green when you can IMO.
2. Love the hole design and the village setting. The bushes/sunken trees surrounding the green seem GIGANTIC to me, might need some adjusting.
3. Biarritz, love it!
4. I'm assuming you're going for a lion's mouth here, and I can see some of the bunkering in the middle is to help separate this hole from 10. I'm wondering if maybe just removing one or two bunkers there might make the angle for left pins more gettable? I had a right pin on mine so it didn't matter, but if I had a left pin I think finding that angle would be nigh impossible with the number of bunkers out left.
5. Love this one, especially the pair of bunkers left that form a roll-out hazard.
6. This might just be me, but I really don't "get" this hole, other than as a fairly straightforward 3-shot par 5 (which is fine if that's what you're going for). I could just be missing what the challenge/question is.
7. Seems alright, some might have an issue with the false-front given the length but personally I think it's an alright challenge.
8. No comment here, alright hole
9. Same
10. After playing this, I do think I'd consider what I said about 4 - maybe just removing the right half of those clusters of middle bunkers? I see the line of play you're trying to defend, cutting the par 5 close, but I think maybe it's a bit overprotected.
11. Gorgeous look off the tee, sadly with the wind I had the second fairway wasn't an option but the hole is great.
12. Love this hole as well. Again, some of the bushes off the green/near the lighthouse seem a tad big, but I love the greensight and overall look of this hole.
13. Cape hole I'm assuming. Looks alright, not sure what I'd change 
14. We have our short. Bunkering looks nice, you pull off that minimalist style well. The teebox needs flattening (one of my tee markers was floating!) and I kinda wish we could see more of the planting you've done down in the canyon below - would really help add to the beauty of the hole.
15. Back to back par 3's? Fun! I'm also a big fan of the redan/kicker slope idea so this always makes me happy to see. I kinda like the bunker long making me think a bit more before I just hit at the slope.
16. Wowee that falloff back. Personally I like it, I'm not 100% sure whether doing that along with the thin green AND fronting bunkers is too much? Maybe over protecting par at that point, but I could be wrong.
17. Very fun road hole even despite me getting a double bogey.
18. Well now that's definitely an interesting finisher. You might get some flack for the cart path running the fairway - and that green is definitely a statement. I imagine you're maybe pulling from Winged Foot 18? (Stairstep up to the clubhouse idea). I'm fine with the false-front, I worry about having that AND the back tier though. Especially given b101's hole thing about "slope-to-slope" designs in this game almost always leading to putts just rollercoastering off greens. If you want the difficulty though, go for it! Just something to keep in mind.

Overall, I like this! The setting is very well done, planting looks great and you've done a pretty good job with the minimalist bunker look. Most holes I think have pretty strong ideas, just a few here and there where I personally might have made different choices but I hope my feedback helps!

Between this post and what Fargo said, you’ve got all you need to do to get approved.

With architecture just always be sure to remember that the risky tee ball should give you the best look at the green - be sure to reward the risky tee ball with a straightforward angle to the green, don’t protect that second shot if the player has already gambled off the tee, reward them.

On the flip side, give the player a safe tee ball option, should they chose it, pose the question on the second shot - make the angle unfavourable, give them a bunker to go over, or give them some “intentional blindness”.

The third tee ball which I always consider is that of the “chopper” give them a route they can shank it to a par 4 in three shots.

If you can cover those three elements on the majority of your holes, the strategy will be good! Aside from that, just make sure we can see the bunkers, see the intended line of play and don’t let planting ruin a good hole!

[waldo]

Yep that was my thought process throughout! Every aggressive drive provides advantages(if pulled off) and vice versa.

[waldo]

This course is now officially published as “Sag Harbor Field Club,USA”. Appreciate everyone’s help along the way! I’m happy to say it was approved! Hopefully I’ll get the tour worthy label as well!