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Post by bubbadave on Dec 13, 2022 14:33:40 GMT -5
1) PGA 2K23 is a game that is designed to be played with consumable golf balls. The way the courses play shows to me that 2K/HB wanted people to shell out VC for golf balls that slow greens speeds down and make the surfaces softer. I was 100% against the use of consumable golf balls in TGCT, but it is pretty obvious to see why they are in the game. So I do think there's a bit of validity to the discussion about whether or not banning them is the right thing. 2) The course he's talking about was tested for tour play in November, prior to the ability to ban the consumable golf balls. So all ranger play was done with the knowledge that (at that time) most players would be using a ball that would slow speeds down. 3) The course he's talking about is meant to be hard...it was a Plat course last season. Some weeks are tougher than others. 4) We are only 6 weeks in, and the designer was/is still buggy, so new courses designed for play in 2K23 have been slow to come out. Most courses used on tour to this point are 2K21 ports. It's just requiring a bit more patience this time around to have courses specifically built in 2K23, with the gameplay from 2K23 in mind. General observations.
1. Is it possible for TGCT to "flip" a switch and turn on consumable balls? I have only ever played the default (I don't know their impact on my play). My thought is, I think it would be a blast if TGCT in-lined a few "Open" tournaments each season that allows for any consumable to be played. I'll let them decide if these tournaments would or would not count against rankings. 2. The earlier courses were brutal for me. Not only were some of those greens like putting on a kitchen floor. but trying to learn Master level really sunk my prospects of moving up. I'm still sitting with four demotion points because + double digits aren't good for staying in CC-L. That said, the last two courses have been much more manageable and I'm hoping to make another cut. 3. Which is fine. This is very PGA-esque. 4. I for one appreciate what you rangers do. |
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Post by sroel908 on Dec 13, 2022 14:39:26 GMT -5
1) PGA 2K23 is a game that is designed to be played with consumable golf balls. The way the courses play shows to me that 2K/HB wanted people to shell out VC for golf balls that slow greens speeds down and make the surfaces softer. I was 100% against the use of consumable golf balls in TGCT, but it is pretty obvious to see why they are in the game. So I do think there's a bit of validity to the discussion about whether or not banning them is the right thing. 2) The course he's talking about was tested for tour play in November, prior to the ability to ban the consumable golf balls. So all ranger play was done with the knowledge that (at that time) most players would be using a ball that would slow speeds down. 3) The course he's talking about is meant to be hard...it was a Plat course last season. Some weeks are tougher than others. 4) We are only 6 weeks in, and the designer was/is still buggy, so new courses designed for play in 2K23 have been slow to come out. Most courses used on tour to this point are 2K21 ports. It's just requiring a bit more patience this time around to have courses specifically built in 2K23, with the gameplay from 2K23 in mind. General observations.
1. Is it possible for TGCT to "flip" a switch and turn on consumable balls? I have only ever played the default (I don't know their impact on my play). My thought is, I think it would be a blast if TGCT in-lined a few "Open" tournaments each season that allows for any consumable to be played. I'll let them decide if these tournaments would or would not count against rankings. 2. The earlier courses were brutal for me. Not only were some of those greens like putting on a kitchen floor. but trying to learn Master level really sunk my prospects of moving up. I'm still sitting with four demotion points because + double digits aren't good for staying in CC-L. That said, the last two courses have been much more manageable and I'm hoping to make another cut. 3. Which is fine. This is very PGA-esque. 4. I for one appreciate what you rangers do. 1) Yes, that is how the restriction of consumable balls works in societies. There is a toggle that that either allows them or restricts them at an admin level. TGCT is restricting them. I could see "Open" consumable golf ball events being an option, but I think the idea that everyone is one the same level, at least in terms of golf balls, is what is most desired here by the community. 2) Again, these early events mostly used 2K21 ported courses...these courses were not made with the 2K23 gameplay in mind. And everyone was feeling out the Master swing, too. I think things are progressing a bit now, in terms of knowing how 2K23 plays, so it makes sense that more recent events in CC are a bit more manageable. I mean, I am in CC-F and shot a first-round 57 last week...that's pretty wild for me. 3) Yep, precisely. 4) Thanks! |
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Post by PicnicGuy / BobalooNOLA on Dec 13, 2022 15:48:16 GMT -5
This game has awful green rollout. The worse i've ever seen since this game started. Not much you can do about it but try to land short and hope the ball rolls up nice and slow. So, "learn to play well", in other words ?
It's really amazing what a little focus & scouting will do for your scores. I'm easily 10 shots better here in TGCT than in my other Master societies, simply because I take more time here.
As for greens, yes there are some questionable pins out there, but I always prefer a bit faster green, myself.
155 is just acceptable, but 164-172 is my 'sweet spot'. (Actually that SPEED is 12.5 or so, but ... )
I've seen a handful of pins that I thought were just too edgy, usually due to cross slope making even the uphill comeback a tester.
Mostly, the pins are fine, but the shot required to get CLOSE is very exacting.
Which is the fairest way to make greens tough, IMO.
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Post by GW_Hope on Dec 13, 2022 16:38:25 GMT -5
I’ve read the responses. I have no issue with the rangers. In fact I was one for a short while. I just didn’t have the time to stick with it. So I do appreciate that task. My issue is if the need to raise scores involves setting Augusta Masters greens each week then maybe Legendary swing would be a better choice and have more manageable greens? It’s just a discussion, nobody is being attacked here. I personally haven’t liked the way the greens have played. I played rounds in all the Pro divisions so it’s not just isolated to Platinum. I really don’t care how I place in tournaments. I can’t be alone, and from some of the responses I don’t think I am.
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Post by sroel908 on Dec 13, 2022 16:59:56 GMT -5
I’ve read the responses. I have no issue with the rangers. In fact I was one for a short while. I just didn’t have the time to stick with it. So I do appreciate that task. My issue is if the need to raise scores involves setting Augusta Masters greens each week then maybe Legendary swing would be a better choice and have more manageable greens? It’s just a discussion, nobody is being attacked here. I personally haven’t liked the way the greens have played. I played rounds in all the Pro divisions so it’s not just isolated to Platinum. I really don’t care how I place in tournaments. I can’t be alone, and from some of the responses I don’t think I am. I think it's fair to feel that way, and I think it's good that you and others are sharing feelings and experiences. I think that the best response to it, in short, is that we're still early on in the season and things are still getting figured out. We use the 9-box rule, plus some common sense based on tour level, to OK a green speed when rangering. But most of these courses aren't based on how 2K23 plays, since they were made in 2K21. Add in the additional roll out, which wouldn't be as pronounced if consumables could be used, and you have some tricky situations here in the early-goings. I hope that the course designer bugs get fixed, and courses based on 2K23 get released with regularity, soon. Then this likely won't be as much of an issue...fingers crossed. |
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Post by greyosprey on Dec 13, 2022 17:53:50 GMT -5
If you want to fix course selection/set-up, turn off some aids, especially on the pro tours, starting with lie and green grid along with the aiming marker.
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Post by GW_Hope on Dec 13, 2022 18:16:13 GMT -5
I’ve read the responses. I have no issue with the rangers. In fact I was one for a short while. I just didn’t have the time to stick with it. So I do appreciate that task. My issue is if the need to raise scores involves setting Augusta Masters greens each week then maybe Legendary swing would be a better choice and have more manageable greens? It’s just a discussion, nobody is being attacked here. I personally haven’t liked the way the greens have played. I played rounds in all the Pro divisions so it’s not just isolated to Platinum. I really don’t care how I place in tournaments. I can’t be alone, and from some of the responses I don’t think I am. I think it's fair to feel that way, and I think it's good that you and others are sharing feelings and experiences. I think that the best response to it, in short, is that we're still early on in the season and things are still getting figured out. We use the 9-box rule, plus some common sense based on tour level, to OK a green speed when rangering. But most of these courses aren't based on how 2K23 plays, since they were made in 2K21. Add in the additional roll out, which wouldn't be as pronounced if consumables could be used, and you have some tricky situations here in the early-goings. I hope that the course designer bugs get fixed, and courses based on 2K23 get released with regularity, soon. Then this likely won't be as much of an issue...fingers crossed. Thank you for your understanding. I totally understand the circumstances. I also agree that it is important to have these discussions. Everyone should be able to state the opinions and I hope to see more because everyone has one. |
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Post by GW_Hope on Dec 13, 2022 18:17:44 GMT -5
If you want to fix course selection/set-up, turn off some aids, especially on the pro tours, starting with lie and green grid along with the aiming marker. Those are also options to limit scoring if that is indeed the goal. |
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Post by b101 on Dec 14, 2022 3:52:17 GMT -5
To be honest, the biggest issue with this is less to do with schedulers or rangers, more on us as designers. If you don’t playtest greens rigorously on ports from 2K21, they will simply play badly. Backstops that worked in 21 will now kick balls off the greens, consistent slopes away from bunkers will make bunker shots impossible and short siding shouldn’t be the norm as it had to be in 21. For that reason, ‘quick’ ports will annoy people when they’re on tour and a lot of courses people will want ported may not make the leap.
Personally, I’m a big fan of the default ball and how it rolls out - the issue is that many of the courses being used weren’t designed with that in mind and/or still have those green issues from previous games. When hitting the fairway was trivial (21), greens needed more bite and angles needed to be exaggerated. Now they aren’t, designers need to learn to rein it in more and adapt. It’s a hard process and will take time as the previous game (plus the pro swing era - thanks, HB) forced people into a lot of bad habits. By way of example, Barton Hills will likely never be ported. If you wanted a perfect case of tricking up a course around too easy a swing, that’s your one.
I do also think an aspect of this is that players need to get used to not automatically hitting a green. Struggling on a pro tour and scoring -4 is absolutely fine (indeed, good). This stuff never pleases everyone. We’ve had weeks where you need birdie on every hole and people hate that and we have difficult weeks where it’s a grind and some people hate that. But, I can categorically tell you no scheduler seeks to limit scoring, outside of majors. Over the course of the season, I’m sure it’ll even out. The schedulers and rangers work hard and do listen - but pleasing everyone every week is an impossible and unrealistic ask.
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Post by b101 on Dec 14, 2022 3:55:29 GMT -5
The other thing I’d add is a need for patience with designers. Porting courses in this game is a time-intensive pain and it has switched a number of people off. Add to that a number of guys walking away from this game and if you wanted to revisit green rules, you would likely end up with only a handful of courses available.
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Post by lessangster on Dec 14, 2022 4:08:42 GMT -5
The other thing I’d add is a need for patience with designers. Porting courses in this game is a time-intensive pain and it has switched a number of people off. Add to that a number of guys walking away from this game and if you wanted to revisit green rules, you would likely end up with only a handful of courses available. I’ve not designed or started a design in the new game I’m just disappointed in what they’ve given us or not as the case may be. |
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Post by lessangster on Dec 14, 2022 4:09:19 GMT -5
Then again who’s going to miss them 😂
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Post by b101 on Dec 14, 2022 4:15:52 GMT -5
The other thing I’d add is a need for patience with designers. Porting courses in this game is a time-intensive pain and it has switched a number of people off. Add to that a number of guys walking away from this game and if you wanted to revisit green rules, you would likely end up with only a handful of courses available. I’ve not designed or started a design in the new game I’m just disappointed in what they’ve given us or not as the case may be. Here's where I disagree with a lot of folks. I think updating almost every single object and revamping gameplay is a lot to have given us. Would I have wanted more? Sure - and I've sent a long list of things we want, which they are working through (slowly). But I don't think what we have is insignificant. |
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Post by lessangster on Dec 14, 2022 4:17:52 GMT -5
I’ve not designed or started a design in the new game I’m just disappointed in what they’ve given us or not as the case may be. Here's where I disagree with a lot of folks. I think updating almost every single object and revamping gameplay is a lot to have given us. Would I have wanted more? Sure - and I've sent a long list of things we want, which they are working through (slowly). But I don't think what we have is insignificant. Well that’s where you and I differ, that’s your opinion and i respect that |
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Post by PicnicGuy / BobalooNOLA on Dec 14, 2022 10:06:28 GMT -5
I'm more in line with Ben.
IMO, too many stupid pins exist because designers' egos get crushed when good players have a good day on their course.
I've had my fill of pins on 1 yd-square crowns, or a yard from a red slope off the green.
If your pins made real-world sense before, they probably will now.
If you designed to keep even well-played scores down, there could be some issues.
For me, a couple of squares of green around a pin seems true to my real-world golf experience, so I'm usually not overly cruel in placing them.
I guess it's unfortunate that placement is an inexact science, yet putting is a science of line & bead counting to a lot of players.
How about this as a potential equalizer ... give societies an option to set a shot timer. AT least make them do their math quickly, like real golfers.LOL.
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