St Mathew's Isle

[Small Ejector]

Hi All

I am a new member to the community and of the 80 or so hours in game in the last 2 weeks, I suspect only 5 of those have been playing golf.  Who knew creating golf courses was so much fun!

This is my fist course, I know it won't get approved and I'm approaching the task in this mindset.  I've already invested some significant time into SMI though and I was hoping some kind members would be prepared to give me some honest and direct criticism, no offence will be taken!

I've only completed 6 holes and they don't flow in order, 1-5 then 18, is this acceptable when asking people to beta?  If so, I'll publish with a temp name and post the details in this thread.  If not, how many holes are considered suitable for beta?  I want to make sure my strategy and sculpting aren't way off the mark.  None of the holes are fully complete so it's more a 'yea you're kind of there' or 'it's an absolute shambles, rip it up and start again' type feedback.

Much appreciated.

[fargo]

Hey mate if you've got one hole and publish a beta I'm happy to play it and let you know my thoughts.

If you've got 6 holes then there's zero issue publishing a beta, especially for your first course where there may be fundamental things that you're overlooking - you don't really want to make another 12 holes that end up having the same issues.

FYI the course pics look good. It's impossible to know for sure without playing the thing, but it's pretty obviously had more thought put in than the vast majority of first courses

[Small Ejector]

Thanks Fargo, really appreciate it!

I've published it under SMI Beta v1.0, looking forward to hearing your critique.

[sroel908]

A beta is a great idea, and you can publish it with as many holes completed as you'd like.

From the pictures, I would say that the color of textures used for greens/tee boxes might be a little too neon green for my taste in a course that looks like it's set on a rugged coastline. I also think the sculpting of that teeing area peninsula behind the clubhouse is a bit harsh and kind of strange-looking. I might sculpt it a bit more to make it blend in a bit better.

It seems that all bunkers and greens are stock shapes, too. Not necessarily a problem, but using single stock shapes for bunkers and greens repeatedly can be quite noticeable. To change it up, consider combining a couple stock shapes to make bunkers that have varying looks to them. I would also recommend building greens with splines...splining greens gives you better control over shape, secondary surfaces, and more. They will also have a more unique look to them than by just using the stock shape brushes found in the designer.

[Small Ejector]

Thank you sroel908, appreciate the advice. I started splining greens and bunkers but I found them too inconsistent or I was putting curves in for the sake of it, but agree it’s obvious that both greens and bunkers are too standard. Will try splining until I get it right.

I had the same thought on colours and wondered whether anyone has any pallet comparisons/combos that work and go together. Assuming a rugged coastline as you say the greens are either too dark so as not stand out from the fairway or too bright, I agree 100% though.

Out of interest is there a theme considered easiest for beginners?

[sroel908]

Apr 20, 2022 11:43:03 GMT -5 Small Ejector said:

Thank you sroel908, appreciate the advice. I started splining greens and bunkers but I found them too inconsistent or I was putting curves in for the sake of it, but agree it’s obvious that both greens and bunkers are too standard. Will try splining until I get it right.

I had the same thought on colours and wondered whether anyone has any pallet comparisons/combos that work and go together. Assuming a rugged coastline as you say the greens are either too dark so as not stand out from the fairway or too bright, I agree 100% though.

Out of interest is there a theme considered easiest for beginners?

Something to note is that the textures of greens, fairways, and rough tend to all go together with their matching texture number across all categories. For example, texture 10 green works well with texture 10 fairway and 10 light/heavy rough. You can definitely mix and match, but I always try to keep the textures together unless I have a specific need for a very different contrasting look.

As far as theme...to me, it's all personal preference. I don't think any are "easier" than others. But some are more versatile. I think Delta is likely the most versatile of the bunch.

[cd06]

Welcome!

Heres a tip for bunkers - use the measuring tool to trace out a shape and then get the circle brush and make it as small as you can. Then trace the circle brush along the boundaries of the measure tools and fill in the rest. you can do stuff like this with splines as well, and splines are probably better for simpler bunker shapes.

Hope that helps and looking forward to seeing your finished product

[Small Ejector]

Thanks again sroel908 - I never even thought of that! I will try some combinations but using the same number for green, fairway, rough etc.

cd06 - nice to meet you! OK, interesting, what is the advantage of using the small circle brush method over just splining? I'll try it either way, just curious.

Great community around this game it seems, nice to see.

[cd06]

Apr 20, 2022 12:49:06 GMT -5 Small Ejector said:

Thanks again sroel908 - I never even thought of that! I will try some combinations but using the same number for green, fairway, rough etc.

cd06 - nice to meet you! OK, interesting, what is the advantage of using the small circle brush method over just splining? I'll try it either way, just curious.

Great community around this game it seems, nice to see.

The small circle brush tends to allow somewhat more interesting shapes to work, splining can be a little fiddly to get the exact shape you want

[sroel908]

Just played the beta, default conditions, black tees, Pin 2.

Hole 1 - strategy here is kind of tough. The fairway doesn't start until about 225 yards from the back tees, and is all carry over water. The fairway also ends just 315 yards away from the back tees. So driver off the tee goes thru the fairway, and anything less than 3-wood doesn't get there. Essentially there is then just one option off the tee, unless the wind is really whipping in your face or at your back. With 3-wood off the tee, I was able to hit my drive about 260, and still have 201 yards to the hole.

The sculpting of the bunker on the right side of the fairway is very harsh...the back side of it is a very huge mound that looks a bit strange. There's also some random tall grass planted in the light rough near that bunker.

Your green speeds here are set to Slow - 101. This, for me personally, is way too slow for your speeds to be set at. The ball moves like it's stuck to the putting surface with Velcro or something. I'd shoot for something a bit higher, at least Medium - 144, IMO.

Hole 2 - I don't mind the look and design of this hole. But the sculpting in the fairway is a bit too dramatic. I hit one to the middle of the short grass, and it got rejected and sent backward into the rough. The green here also has red slopes on it - this is kind of an issue, since your green speeds are set so low. If there are red slopes here on 101 speeds, I'd imagine they'd be pretty wild on even Medium or Fast green speeds. This limits the flexibility schedulers have as to adjusting green speeds for events. As it is, you probably would be forced to play this course on Slow or Medium speeds, and that's not usually recommended.

Hole 3 - I would remove the bushes in front of the tee box here. They block the view of the fairway and don't look great. The fairway itself starts too far away from the back tees here - it doesn't begin until about 270 yards away from the black tees! If a stiff wind is in my face, and since this is 50-foot uphill hole, there's a good chance my tee shot - with a driver - isn't getting to the short grass. I always aim to start my fairways somewhere between 150-175 yards from the back tees. The fairway again is sculpted a bit too aggressively. Balls into the fairway get rolled off it and into rough. Again, more red slopes on a green at slow speeds...the slopes are OK, but being so sharp already at these speeds is not really advisable.

Hole 4 - the black tees are not on a short-grass surface...they are just stuck in the heavy rough.

This hole is a problem:


The OB to the left of the hole, honestly, doesn't make any sense. It also crosses into half of the left fairway bunkers and even into fairway up closer to the green...not great. The split fairway idea here is a little silly, too. The left section of the fairway is what I am going for 100% of the time. Going to the right adds at least 40 yards to the second shot. Since that OB should be removed or at the very least taken much more out of play, sand is the only danger left. It's not keeping me from going that direction each and every time. The green slopes here are a little odd, too.

Hole 5 - not too bad here...red slopes on the green are still an issue with the slow speeds, and perhaps the green is a bit large for a mid-length par-3.

Hole 6 - again, tee boxes here don't have their correct surface. It's just heavy rough again....and there's also no fairway or green? So it looks like this is where you've ended up to this point. I think this hole could be pretty cool if designed right and sculpted well. But since the rest of the course doesn't seem finished, I quit here.

General thoughts...as I expected, the neon green surfaces for tee boxes and greens looks jarring, compared to the dark green heavy rough and the kind of rocky environment here. I would work on adjusting green speeds and sculpting greens to better match a faster putting surface. Some other sculpting around the course was harsh, too. I would also consider reworking Hole 4 almost completely. The split fairway doesn't really make sense, and neither does the OB there. But there are some interesting ideas and nice views around the course, so I think you're on the right track.

[Small Ejector]

Thank you so much for the feedback. It’s useful to get a proper perspective from someone with experience. I’ve been playing other courses for the last couple of days and I’m absolutely blown away.

I can see many errors I have made already and I’m going to keep this course as somewhere try try things out over the remaining holes but it’s clear it would fall well short already.

One of the things I struggle with is keeping sight lines when the hole has upwards elevation towards the green. I’m also finding sculpting in general and keeping mounds and hills natural very difficult.

I’m going to slow down on the course design, play some more courses for ideas and inspiration. I’ll then take these elements back and put some practice in to creating realistic terrain prior to worrying about hole design etc!

On the green speeds, I set these fairly middle of the road I thought. Is there a good setting for the bounce / roll settings for all surfaces that allow those playing to set a range of conditions themselves?

Finally, I can see now how terrible the greens are and how badly red slopes affect play.

I’m very grateful for the feedback. Please let me know if I can return the favour?

[sroel908]

Apr 21, 2022 15:40:29 GMT -5 Small Ejector said:

On the green speeds, I set these fairly middle of the road I thought. Is there a good setting for the bounce / roll settings for all surfaces that allow those playing to set a range of conditions themselves?

Finally, I can see now how terrible the greens are and how badly red slopes affect play.

Green speeds set to 101 are at the very slow end of the spectrum. When in the designer, I think the default speed settings are at the .5 marks on the scale. For example, the default setting for "Fast" green speeds in the designer is at the 7.5 setting on the Green Speed Setting slider. 101 green speeds are the slowest they can be in game, at the 4.5 setting on the Green Speed Setting slider.

Bounce and roll settings cannot be changed by anyone else...only the designer can set those. Players can change green speed and firmness of greens and fairways. The settings you choose to set those to when designing are completely up to your personal preference.

Also, red slopes on their own are not a bad thing. It's the fact that your greens here had red slopes on the slowest green speeds possible.

If you've not done so already, I'd recommend watching the Course Design 101 video series by CrazyCanuck1985: www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLMfOamKMuHDuC9B69-29kORMJ4jacde0P