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Post by Bob334OH on Feb 27, 2022 11:33:55 GMT -5
1. Framing VS Views and Sight lines - I am working on my 4th course and wanted to know how you weigh Framing vs View from primarily the tee and but also other parts of the course. I understand the importance of framing and I love trees but I hate to block a view of other parts of the course, especially future holes. Also, do you try to frame every tee shot or leave some open to avoid sameness and add variation and freshness?
2. Question regarding playability from the forward tees. Example - On the forward tees am I obligated to ensure that the player can hit a 295yd driver and not run out of fairway on a split fairway hole. Or say the landing area is in a narrowing area of the fairway which is unreachable from the back tees? I am still at the designing stage where I lay out my course from the back tees and add forward tees (tee) later.
Thanks, Bob
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Post by gamesdecent on Feb 27, 2022 15:09:22 GMT -5
For 1. Sightlines. I kind of think of them as 2 ways to do the same thing. Framing is really just driving the eye toward where you want it to focus, it doesn't have to be with trees boxing in the tee area, it can be through how the land slopes, where tree lines start and stop, how a cart path moves through the hole, etc. For 2. I would say you aren't obligated to do anything, especially when it comes to letting people on the forward tees hit the longest clubs. I would even say you're more obligated NOT to let them hit the longest clubs from up there.
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Post by fargo on Feb 27, 2022 19:14:32 GMT -5
1 I think framing can be done in multiple ways. Obviously trees and planting can easily be manipulated to frame a shot, but even that can be done in different ways. One tree close to the tee box or a little wood a long way from the tee box can have a similar effect. If there's a nice view of a different hole or some other interesting feature on one side (or both) then absolutely don't block it with trees. A garden bed can be made to look nice. Even a cart path and maybe a bench and a ball washer can be used to add a little more to one side of the tee box. The slope of the land in the near field, or in the distance. And yes, just some empty grassy area can work too if it is in keeping with the course and there's plenty of interest elsewhere.
2 in my opinion you absolutely do not have to make life easier for people hitting 300 yard shots from the kids tees. If they're playing from there then they'll have to deal with many forced layups.
I actually fundamentally disagree with many players distaste for forcing a lesser club off the tee. It's common in real golf and I don't see any issue with it in this game. Merion hole 11 for example. But obviously others disagree, that's cool.
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Post by photokevie on Feb 28, 2022 10:10:00 GMT -5
This series that B101 did using his South Yarra course and breaking down design decisions is really cool. Some sight line concepts he talks about around the 7min mark. But the entire video and the other south yarra design concept to reality videos are full of great tips.
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Post by coursedesignHQ on Mar 1, 2022 11:51:33 GMT -5
I talked a bit about sight lines/ framing on my YouTube channel. I’m no expert but there might a little useful info in there
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Post by sturat64 on Mar 1, 2022 20:04:50 GMT -5
1 I think framing can be done in multiple ways. Obviously trees and planting can easily be manipulated to frame a shot, but even that can be done in different ways. One tree close to the tee box or a little wood a long way from the tee box can have a similar effect. If there's a nice view of a different hole or some other interesting feature on one side (or both) then absolutely don't block it with trees. A garden bed can be made to look nice. Even a cart path and maybe a bench and a ball washer can be used to add a little more to one side of the tee box. The slope of the land in the near field, or in the distance. And yes, just some empty grassy area can work too if it is in keeping with the course and there's plenty of interest elsewhere. 2 in my opinion you absolutely do not have to make life easier for people hitting 300 yard shots from the kids tees. If they're playing from there then they'll have to deal with many forced layups. I actually fundamentally disagree with many players distaste for forcing a lesser club off the tee. It's common in real golf and I don't see any issue with it in this game. Merion hole 11 for example. But obviously others disagree, that's cool. Totally agree with you about forcing lesser clubs off the tee! Since when did that become an issue?? Merion 11 is a good example but there are tons of courses on the PGA tour that do just that on many different holes, but for some reason if you take driver out of someones hand its become a point of criticism.
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Post by sroel908 on Mar 1, 2022 20:32:09 GMT -5
1 I think framing can be done in multiple ways. Obviously trees and planting can easily be manipulated to frame a shot, but even that can be done in different ways. One tree close to the tee box or a little wood a long way from the tee box can have a similar effect. If there's a nice view of a different hole or some other interesting feature on one side (or both) then absolutely don't block it with trees. A garden bed can be made to look nice. Even a cart path and maybe a bench and a ball washer can be used to add a little more to one side of the tee box. The slope of the land in the near field, or in the distance. And yes, just some empty grassy area can work too if it is in keeping with the course and there's plenty of interest elsewhere. 2 in my opinion you absolutely do not have to make life easier for people hitting 300 yard shots from the kids tees. If they're playing from there then they'll have to deal with many forced layups. I actually fundamentally disagree with many players distaste for forcing a lesser club off the tee. It's common in real golf and I don't see any issue with it in this game. Merion hole 11 for example. But obviously others disagree, that's cool. Totally agree with you about forcing lesser clubs off the tee! Since when did that become an issue?? Merion 11 is a good example but there are tons of courses on the PGA tour that do just that on many different holes, but for some reason if you take driver out of someones hand its become a point of criticism. I think it's all in how it's done, and in the execution. For example, I've seen 600-plus-yard par-5s, where a designer cuts off the fairway for no explicable reason at 295 yards, forcing 3-wood off the tee just to make the hole "harder". The fairway then starts up 10-15 yards later, with just a patch of heavy rough in between. If a hole is designed for the player to perhaps consider driver, yet make the smart play hitting fairway metal or less off the tee, it much more interesting and organically laid out. But by designing a hole to be super limiting, it feels forced and is not as enjoyable.
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Post by fargo on Mar 1, 2022 20:40:00 GMT -5
Yeah I agree with that, that it's often not handled well with hazards or rough areas that only exist to effectively lengthen the hole unnaturally. But these things do happen in real golf and if they are handled well then I don't have a problem with it. I think if someone designed the 1st at Riviera they'd get comments saying "don't take the driver out of my hands" or similar.
I'm planning for the first hole on my next original course to be a 3 shot par 5 where you can't take anything more than a long iron off the tee due to a 90 degree dogleg (seriously). I think it can work.
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Post by ErixonStone on Mar 1, 2022 20:55:00 GMT -5
I'm planning for the first hole on my next original course to be a 3 shot par 5 where you can't take anything more than a long iron off the tee due to a 90 degree dogleg (seriously). I think it can work. Just put the tee up there at the 90-degree corner and make it a par 4.
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Post by fargo on Mar 1, 2022 21:11:21 GMT -5
I'm planning for the first hole on my next original course to be a 3 shot par 5 where you can't take anything more than a long iron off the tee due to a 90 degree dogleg (seriously). I think it can work. Just put the tee up there at the 90-degree corner and make it a par 4. It's not a bad suggestion but I do have a purpose in mind for that first shot. Anyway it may not ever end up happening because if it doesn't work it will never see the light of day.
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Post by sroel908 on Mar 1, 2022 21:12:03 GMT -5
I'm planning for the first hole on my next original course to be a 3 shot par 5 where you can't take anything more than a long iron off the tee due to a 90 degree dogleg (seriously). I think it can work. Just put the tee up there at the 90-degree corner and make it a par 4.
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Post by sturat64 on Mar 1, 2022 22:37:24 GMT -5
Totally agree with you about forcing lesser clubs off the tee! Since when did that become an issue?? Merion 11 is a good example but there are tons of courses on the PGA tour that do just that on many different holes, but for some reason if you take driver out of someones hand its become a point of criticism. I think it's all in how it's done, and in the execution. For example, I've seen 600-plus-yard par-5s, where a designer cuts off the fairway for no explicable reason at 295 yards, forcing 3-wood off the tee just to make the hole "harder". The fairway then starts up 10-15 yards later, with just a patch of heavy rough in between. If a hole is designed for the player to perhaps consider driver, yet make the smart play hitting fairway metal or less off the tee, it much more interesting and organically laid out. But by designing a hole to be super limiting, it feels forced and is not as enjoyable. Agreed, anything that's done just to make a hole more difficult to play or to protect par is BS. Strategic execution is the key,
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