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Post by turkmcgill on Feb 24, 2022 7:31:51 GMT -5
I am working on my third course and I have some questions: 1. Tee BoxesI make and balance my courses using the Championship tees. Then I put in two other tee boxes. I try to make these look good, but they are purely decorative. I never play or test my course from these other tees. Should I? Does anyone ever use these? 2. Out of BoundsThe course I'm finishing up is a very rustic Wyoming layout. I have one hole that is right next to a street, with houses. Another hole has backyards down the right side of the fairway. And two more holes have fenced areas (with cows). I made the street OB but it was such a PITA that I decided not to add OB to the other holes. Hey, if you knock it into the field and have to shoot over or around a cow, that kind of fits the rustic Wyoming setting, right? I'm not trying to make a fantasy course though, so maybe I should put in OB. But what is the trick? The UX for this is atrocious! When I added OB to the street I thought it would be super easy. The fairway is flat and there is a perfectly straight fence running along it. One side of the fence is OB and the other side is not -- couldn't be simpler. Or so I thought. I tried one long brush, lots of small brushes, but no matter what I did I still got this super wavy area the game considers OB. It's going to be really frustrating when someone hits one over the fence and it's NOT OB, and then they nearly go over the fence the next time and it IS OB. What am I doing wrong? 3. Ways to make courses more difficult?Players complained that my first two courses were "easy", so I wanted to make this next one a bit more challenging. I tackled that objective in the following ways: - Many of my fairways are only 30-35 yards across. And I added some bunkers in the fairways to make shots even more challenging.
- I added waste bunkers near some of the greens. These are deep, heavy rough, and full of bushes. (There's even a little water at the bottom of each one, so if someone winds up in the middle they are forced to take an "unplayable lie".)
- I added quite a bit of undulation to my greens. Longer putts can have have double or even triple breaks, so being close to the pin is critical for good scoring.
- To simulate Wyoming courses, the greens are rock hard. On longer holes it's essential to land short and bounce/roll on.
I managed to get 5 or 6 people to test my course and received these reactions: - People said that driving was "easy", but several complained about the fairway bunkers. Didn't like 'em.
- No one said anything about the waste bunkers. They may have been non-factors, or maybe they all managed to avoid them.
- Almost everyone agreed that my greens were "brutal". They seemed to be okay with them being hard (and fairly fast), but most did NOT like the undulations that made them "unpredictable".
So that begs the question. How do you make courses more difficult?
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Post by sroel908 on Feb 24, 2022 10:13:13 GMT -5
I believe I played your beta on this course, and can try to answer some of these questions based on what I remember from your course, and how I go about designing.
1) I do a similar thing; only playtest from the back tees, but add a few additional tees mainly for looks. However, I do flatten these tees out, and put them in logical strategic places. Basically, the farther up the tee is, the better the angle the player will have at attacking the hole. I do believe some folks play from other tee boxes to get other views of the course and just to try to shoot as low of a score as possible. So it's probably worth a consideration to at least think a bit about your additional tee boxes if you use them.
2) Out of bounds in this game is a pain, as you said. You are not doing anything wrong. The way it works is not user friendly and takes a long time to do, and even then it comes out wonky and awkward. I do remember the cow pastures on your course. The reason I thought they should be OB is because you had the OB for the road area in place. So, to me, you can't really have it both ways if you're aiming for a "realistic" experience where non-playable areas are marked as OB in some cases, and not in others. To me, a farm area where cows are present should be OB. I don't know anyone who'd want to go onto a cow pasture, dodging manure, to try to hit a shot anyway!
3) I personally recommend not caring about difficulty. This game is way too easy, and players are way too good, to try to "outsmart" everyone with tricked-up ways of making a course play "harder". First off, I don't like the idea of putting water in a waste bunker. That feels forced and not realistic. I'd probably quit my round if I hit a ball in a bunker, and ended up needing to take a penalty and a drop because of water in it. I think you are talking about the small areas of bush and grass near the greens...having water in there is not a great idea IMO.
Hard firmness and fast speed of greens is fine, but if I recall, the undulations you had were not sculpted properly. That was the issue with the "unpredictable" nature of them. The slopes were abrupt and the flow of them was not really natural. You need to do micro-sculpting to make these breaks seem more gradual and natural, otherwise the ball shoots left and right really strangely.
Instead of difficulty, focus on playability, interest, shot value, and angles. Make the round enjoyable, while making the player think about how to approach each shot. People are going to go low on your course no matter how you design it. I mean, Platinum players have carded 53s on this week's course, which is specifically set up to be a challenge for the best in the world. So it really doesn't matter what you do to make a course "difficult". It's more important, to me, that a course be fun, be done technically well, and will make players want to come back to it.
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Post by scootmcgoot on Feb 24, 2022 10:33:19 GMT -5
Some of the forward tees could potentially be used in a tour event or other society events as well. So at least making the 2d longest tee playable is advisable (meaning flatness of the tee box, sightlines, etc). I would at least make the others look good even if they probably won’t ever be used.
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Post by turkmcgill on Feb 24, 2022 11:18:23 GMT -5
Yeah, that was me. And yes, I'm referencing some of your feedback. (Appreciate this new feedback, as well!) First off, I don't like the idea of putting water in a waste bunker. That feels forced and not realistic. I'd probably quit my round if I hit a ball in a bunker, and ended up needing to take a penalty and a drop because of water in it. Regarding my waste bunkers... I find that bunkers around the green are actually a boon, so I tried to make a deep pot bunker. Unfortunately, I drilled down so far I hit water. This makes the bunker disappear and you get a nice round area of heavy rough. I really liked the way that looked, in the fairway around my green, so I made the water as small as I possibly could (softball sized or smaller, in most cases), then I filled the waste bunker with bushes and tall grass. When I land or roll into one of these I usually get stuck on the heavy rough and don't go all the way to the middle, where the tiny bit of invisible water is. So I'm forced to play out of the bunker. The few times that my ball has hit water I could barely hear the splash, because of the "ball going through bushes" sound. Then I got a one shot penalty and it gave me a drop a few feet away. In reality you would NOT be able to hit a shot from that middle of that mess, so the "unplayable" penalty seemed okay. But I wasn't sure how people would react to this. Based on your comment, probably not well. ;-) Anyone else have opinions on this? You can see one of the waste bunkers in this pic: If your ball went to the dead middle of that mess would you be upset if it made you take an unplayable lie?
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Post by shotstone on Feb 24, 2022 11:30:14 GMT -5
Ditch the water in the waste bunker, no matter how small. Players will be enraged with that, many will even quit playing if they find it. My two cents.
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Post by sroel908 on Feb 24, 2022 11:39:00 GMT -5
Yeah, that was me. And yes, I'm referencing some of your feedback. (Appreciate this new feedback, as well!) First off, I don't like the idea of putting water in a waste bunker. That feels forced and not realistic. I'd probably quit my round if I hit a ball in a bunker, and ended up needing to take a penalty and a drop because of water in it. Regarding my waste bunkers... I find that bunkers around the green are actually a boon, so I tried to make a deep pot bunker. Unfortunately, I drilled down so far I hit water. This makes the bunker disappear and you get a nice round area of heavy rough. I really liked the way that looked, in the fairway around my green, so I made the water as small as I possibly could (softball sized or smaller, in most cases), then I filled the waste bunker with bushes and tall grass. When I land or roll into one of these I usually get stuck on the heavy rough and don't go all the way to the middle, where the tiny bit of invisible water is. So I'm forced to play out of the bunker. The few times that my ball has hit water I could barely hear the splash, because of the "ball going through bushes" sound. Then I got a one shot penalty and it gave me a drop a few feet away. In reality you would NOT be able to hit a shot from that middle of that mess, so the "unplayable" penalty seemed okay. But I wasn't sure how people would react to this. Based on your comment, probably not well. ;-) Anyone else have opinions on this? You can see one of the waste bunkers in this pic: If your ball went to the dead middle of that mess would you be upset if it made you take an unplayable lie? I think it's OK to ask for more opinions. But I have to say...ANY water in a bunker/waste area right in front of the green is a poor decision in my mind. If someone goes into it, there's no way they'd know water is there unless they read a post on this forum. They hit into it, and get assessed a penalty? Just a few feet from the hole? Not ideal. Again, I personally feel you're trying to be too penalizing with some decisions, all in hopes of making a more "difficult" course. These waste areas are only there because you're trying to add an artificial challenge. It feels out of place, and will only serve to make the person playing your course feel frustrated and not wish to play it again. As I mentioned before, the idea should be that you're building a course that people will want to return to, due to the strategic layout, the visual interest, and the thought-provoking nature of the course as a whole. To me, a grassy area that's plopped right in the playing line that has invisible water at the bottom of it takes away from the overall enjoyment of the course.
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Post by ErixonStone on Feb 24, 2022 15:10:27 GMT -5
You mentioned that you got some feedback that your greens seemed unpredictable. Here's a couple of examples. The first one is my 17-foot birdie putt on the par 3 15th that has 4 different breaks to it. My ball came to rest on the crest of a ridge. In the first foot or so, my putt breaks LEFT a little bit. After that, for about 3 feet, the putt breaks RIGHT, and then it flattens out for a bit before resuming its break to the RIGHT. Finally, about a foot from the cup, the putt turns LEFT again. The next one is the 16th green. Here, for my 2nd shot on this short par 5, I've got 202 yards to the hole. The pin is back-right and there's about an acre of room. But the left side of this green is WILD. There's a free-form-shaped tier raised above the rest of the green. It's jarring, actually, and we should be aiming for some subtlety. I genuinely hope there isn't a pin atop the front portion of the tier, but I think there probably is. As was discussed in your thread specifically about your 18th hole, your course design is penal, rather than strategic. What I mean is that all the hazards force the player to take a very conservative route, or else, or the hazard that does exist is overly punishing. The idea of taking an unplayable lie because of a bushy waste area right in front of the green is just awful. Avoid this type of design, please. Let's talk about the 15th hole which ends with the green pictured in your original post. Here's the hole layout The hole starts out like a cape hole - diagonal fairway with a large body of water - where the player's choice is to determine how much of the corner he can cut off. I think that's fine. The problem I have with this specific hole is that area where risk-averse players would prefer to play (using a 3W) is the narrowest landing area on the hole. That means, there's not a good safe layup. As you can see in the map on the right, hitting 3w leaves the player with a 200+ yard approach. If the player wants to play it as safe as possible, they need to take out a 3H or 4H and leave themselves an approach of about 250 yards. I marked my line of play. I carried as much water as I could and nearly ran through the fairway. I had 124 to the back pin. In other words, I am hitting a PW while a more conservative player is hitting 3W. That is penal design. You've taken away 3W off the tee, forcing everyone to hit driver. Now, let's talk about the green complex. Here's my approach shot: I have a PW in my hand. That front waste bunker is not a factor at all. My goal is to get the ball near the hole. From farther out, my goal is to hit GIR and 2-putt. I need to avoid all of the hazards; it doesn't matter what the hazard is. It could be a bunker. It could be water. It could be a green run-off. It doesn't matter; I am trying to avoid it. The fact that it's a waste area doesn't affect the way I approach this hole. All it does is give me a penalty if I miss. That's penal design. I recommend getting rid of these things. They don't affect the strategy of the hole. Good players will never hit one of them. Bad players will hit them more often, and they'll hate your course. I am saying this from experience. Also, just a technical note here: your bunkers, in general, are placed too close to the edges of your greens. As a result, they become very hard to sculpt, especially if you want then to be fairly deep. If they're pulled farther away from the playing surfaces, you have more room to drop the basin of the bunkers down without causing the crinkled edges.
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Post by turkmcgill on Feb 24, 2022 16:37:43 GMT -5
@sroel908 I understand about the frustration part. That's definitely not my intent, so I'll be removing all the waste bunkers. (Or at least the water part.) My intent was simply to have a hazard near the hole that players actually wanted to avoid! Greenside bunkers are not a deterrent in this game and I feel like that really limits some of my strategic opportunities. ErixonStone More great feedback. This community is amazing! :-) I recently watched a video that sort of provided a mathematical calculation players could do to read greens. I was hoping that my slightly "confusing" greens would be an answer to that, but I get the point about players being frustrated. Thanks to everyone's comments I'm now focused more on making my course enjoyable and strategic, and not difficult. :-) I've already flattened most of my greens and I'm in the process of redoing them. (I've also completely changed the 18th and several other holes.) Great point about not having a layup area on the 15th. I'll definitely fix that! The waste bunker on 15 isn't a factor for *that* pin position, but it is for one or two of the others. It sounds like I need a new approach, but I often try to divide my greens into roughly three or four uniquely shaped quadrants. If your approach shot gets into the correct quadrant you will have a relatively simple birdie putt. But if you miss the quadrant then you will usually have a red slope to deal with. (I was trying to reward players for great shots.) Sounds like this might feel sort of artificial and lacking in subtlety. I'll work on that. Thanks for the tip about the bunkers. Yeah, I struggled to get rid of the crinkly edges.
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Post by fargo on Feb 24, 2022 17:59:08 GMT -5
Hey mate, there's been a lot of good advice here, here's my two cents:
I definately make the second to longest tees playable, any shorter tees I just place where it looks reasonable and in keeping with the course. Make sure the tee boxes are flat and have a look at them at least to make sure there's no unintentional blindness. But I don't worry about them much more than that.
OB is @!$#ed in the designer, just place it very carefully in small patches, it's hard to get it exactly right but just allow a little room for error - if you're just outside the fence and you find yourself not in OB nobody will care, but if you're inside the fence and in OB people will be upset.
Your third question - wow there are many many books all attempting to answer this question. My opinion is don't worry about making this game hard. Good players can hit the ball straight and will score lots of birdies on every course. Try to make the course fun. The very basic strategy is to challenge a braver shot with risk whilst leaving a safer route that leaves a longer or more challenging shot into the pin. Risk doesn't need to be increased with narrower landing areas and more penal hazards - something as simple a fairway camber can be used for example. Or even just a less accessible route into the pin from the riskier portion of the fairway. And risk doesn't need to be overly penal - it's a lot harder to get a birdie from the rough than it is from the fairway. If good players can hit a 180 yard 3 iron from the heavy rough to 3 feet for birdie, so what? But I agree that it's really hard to get it right.
Also agree that the water in the waste bunkers is a bad idea. Because there's no way to see or expect that outcome in the game.
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Post by ErixonStone on Feb 24, 2022 18:08:56 GMT -5
The waste bunker on 15 isn't a factor for *that* pin position, but it is for one or two of the others. What I meant is: whether you use a waste bunker, a sand bunker, OB, or whatever hazard you want to front the green, the strategy of the hole doesn't really change. What changes is the penalty for missing - sand, rough, long putt, unplayable lie, penalty stroke, penalty + re-hit. Choosing a hazard that results in an unplayable lie or a one-stroke penalty is penal.
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