LucasEatWorld
Amateur Golfer
I'm not superstitious, but I am a little stitious.
Posts: 225
TGCT Name: LucasEatWorld
Tour: Platinum
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Post by LucasEatWorld on Feb 22, 2021 23:43:43 GMT -5
Great job as always fellas. This is such a good collab. I'm sure the guys and gals at Goodr are proud of this one.
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Post by WhatAboutAmeobi on Feb 24, 2021 8:34:44 GMT -5
Really like the vibe of this course and how little land was used to create it. Great job, boys!
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Post by CLEANboxhero on Feb 24, 2021 11:38:19 GMT -5
Hi Had a couple of quick rounds on the course so thought I'd drop on and give you a few thoughts. Clearly these are just personal opinions and based on only a couple of rounds and I'm sure you may disagree with some if not all of the points. I'm a fairly steady player, certainly not a world-beater. Shot -13 second time around. Firstly, I think that it's a lovely looking course. The externals I think are real quality and I particularly liked some of the buildings which must have taken a long time to pull together so well. I also liked the vibe of the place and the overall environment. I thought the green contours were excellent and made approach shots and putts interesting but not overly dicey. Multiple tees aren't flat - holes 2, 3, 4, 7, 8, 17 - Now while that has no actual effect on gameplay (and I'm sure someone will comment that tees aren't always flat in real life) - however, it just shows a slight lack of attention to detail - which given that people HAVE to hit off every tee, should be something you do care about.....(and is surprising given the detail on most of the rest of the course) Hole 1 the stock bunkering kept catching my eye. 2 Patchy bunker planting seemed to be haphazardly done, and without reason. 3 Lack of planting around buildings behind the green, unrealistic and took me out of my round. The buildings just didn't 'pop' alive and just seemed there to be there. 5 fairway necking seemed too penal for length of hole 6 just felt like copywrite infringement 7 not sure what the little piece of fairway was about to the right of the green. Just didn't make sense. The biarritz green seemed quite excessive for an already punitive hole length. Also, I would have liked for this to appear elsewhere on the course. It really struck me when I only saw it once. Quite out of place. 8 the double water table (we'll get to this at later on) 9 double water table with the sand just looked unreasonably unnatural, especially with the sharp drop off a foot in to the water. Retaining wall was incredibly choppy (seen below) 11 while trying to create a road hole in essence - without the road, I wasn't sure what the right play off the tee was. I felt driver was taken out of my hands (which is fine) but then the layup with the 3 wood down the right meant I was blocked out of going for the green by the trees down the right. This may have been your intention but for a mid-length par 5 I would probably have expected to have a shot at the green. It actually looks identical to the fairway layout of the 10th hole of another course.. I can't think of the name of it right now, but it definitely got ripped to pieces in the threads. 13 I wasn't sure what the right play off the tee was. Driver was taken out of my hand 14 I'm uncertain of what the crosshatching is to be on the sand line? Paths? Regardless, it took me out of my round. A 47 yard wide green seemed unnaturally large for the length of the hole but not a deal breaker. Also, the tee shot seemed arbitrarily difficult 15 crosshatching again, and my eye just couldn't stay away from the sparsely planted sunken little bluestem grasses 16 greenside left bunkers intended to be flatbottoms? 17 what is the play off the tee? Driver is a no. 3 wood is likely running out into a bunker even if you carry the rough down the right and even if you do hit the fairway you're left with another 3 wood over an impossible carry I suspect. On my first round I hit 3 wood and found a bunker. Second round I laid up down the left with a 4 hybrid and then had driver left to the green. It could be me, but I just couldn't see what the intended strategy on this hole was, I only want to hit driver - and will only hit driver. Arbitrarily difficult. Double water table with the mulch just didn't mesh well Double water table also did not blend at all with the sand. The underlying terrain of the double water tables just seemed to be completed with little resolve. 18 double water table had many missed heavy rough areas and underlying terrain, I'm assuming rooftops (I certainly hope its not cartpath) are glaringly visible. I think we are falling into the trap of doing stuff for the sake of stuff with the DWT. All seen below The double water plane just didn't work for me and looked unrealistic, particularly with little planting around the edges. One of the biggest things I felt here was the forced nature of some of the tee shots. Felt like a few instances that too much was done to dissuade the aggressive line off the tee, shifting the risk/reward balance to the conservative play. It occurred enough during my round for me to notice it as a recurring trend. To your credit, I never felt out of the hole by playing it safe and managed a very solid round (finished -13, I believe) despite the dodgy state of my game right now. Anyway, just some thoughts from a relatively untrained eye. I'm one of the least well-known 'names' in this community, and it's because I don't win contests. So use that info for what it's worth. Really enjoyed the round and it's a course I'd definitely want to play again if for no other reason but to try and figure out a better strategy off the tee on a couple of the holes. Congratulations on publishing a lovely course. I look forward to your next!!!!! Cheer SHRTS
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Post by sroel908 on Feb 24, 2021 11:56:12 GMT -5
18 double water table had many missed heavy rough areas and underlying terrain, I'm assuming rooftops (I certainly hope its not cartpath) are glaringly visible. I think we are falling into the trap of doing stuff for the sake of stuff with the DWT. All seen below I am trying to do the "building rooftops under the water" trick in my current WIP, and so I was very tuned into the water when I played through this course as well. As you mentioned, the rooftops are very noticeable. I was also caught a bit off guard that they were so clearly visible and it did detract from my enjoyment of the course. On a track that was so polished everywhere else, seeing the roof lines was just a bit jarring. To me, it seems that the rooftop edges are more visible when there is low "golden hour" lighting, like in earlier morning or later afternoon/evening hours. If the sun is set higher, the light reflects off the water's surface and hides the roof edges better. In my WIP, I have the time of day set at 15:15, and the edges are not as visible. I will say, hiding the edges completely seems nigh impossible. I agree with much of the praise that others have said here - this course looks great, has an amazing vibe and a smooth polish, and is a cool way for a brand to be infused into the game via the great content/course creators in the community. But those positives make these kinds of things stick out a bit more.
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Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
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Post by Deleted on Feb 24, 2021 12:39:28 GMT -5
Thank you for the plays and the detailed feedback, I appreciate it. Unfortunately, once again we're stuck between a rock and a hard place. You want a clean look on the water edge because the rough look doesn't make sense on this type of course, then the second water pane trick is the only option, which then creates transparent water (that I think looks hideous). So, to mask that at least a little bit, you can use rooftops the best you can, but the edges are then visible, and yes, in an ideal world, I'd love it if they weren't. So, pick your poison here boys! This is not a flaw that WE have any control over, so if nitpicking that aspect is the worst we have, then I'd say we've done okay, and if seeing the rooftop edges detracts from the actual golf, I really don't know what to tell ya.
I won't say anything more as I don't want to come across as argumentative. We aren't flawless or perfect designers, and neither of us would propose that we are, so although I could dialogue with everything in the feedback, it's better that I don't because I have no intentions of giving off any kind of "elitist" vibe by doing so. I'm grateful for the plays and the different insights people have, even if they don't always see things the way I do.
Cheers
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Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
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Post by Deleted on Feb 24, 2021 12:46:19 GMT -5
P.S. I don't know what to tell you about flat tees, because lacking attention to detail is NOT a problem that we tend to be accused of. I know for a fact that I flattened them several times during the build, and it's also one of the final things on my checklist before publishing. I can tell you that they WERE flattened in the designer, many times.
P.S.S. Find me a list of designers that make retaining walls better than me and Mayo. ;-)
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Post by CLEANboxhero on Feb 24, 2021 12:51:34 GMT -5
Thank you for the plays and the detailed feedback, I appreciate it. Unfortunately, once again we're stuck between a rock and a hard place. You want a clean look on the water edge because the rough look doesn't make sense on this type of course, then the second water pane trick is the only option, which then creates transparent water (that I think looks hideous). So, to mask that at least a little bit, you can use rooftops the best you can, but the edges are then visible, and yes, in an ideal world, I'd love it if they weren't. So, pick your poison here boys! This is not a flaw that WE have any control over, so if nitpicking that aspect is the worst we have, then I'd say we've done okay, and if seeing the rooftop edges detracts from the actual golf, I really don't know what to tell ya. I won't say anything more as I don't want to come across as argumentative. We aren't flawless or perfect designers, and neither of us would propose that we are, so although I could dialogue with everything in the feedback, it's better that I don't because I have no intentions of giving off any kind of "elitist" vibe by doing so. I'm grateful for the plays and the different insights people have, even if they don't always see things the way I do. Cheers Totally understand pal. As indicated by the SHRTS - See How Ridiculous This Sounds? These are just all things copied and pasted from my courses (save the rooftops and crosshatching). Your sentiments were exactly mine as I read about my double water plane. However, I hope the feedback helps. The smoothing of the course and particularly the greens - was on point. Looking forward to your next design!
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Post by CLEANboxhero on Feb 24, 2021 12:53:28 GMT -5
P.S. I don't know what to tell you about flat tees, because lacking attention to detail is NOT a problem that we tend to be accused of. I know for a fact that I flattened them several times during the build, and it's also one of the final things on my checklist before publishing. I can tell you that they WERE flattened in the designer, many times. P.S.S. Find me a list of designers that make retaining walls better than me and Mayo. ;-) Same copy-pasta on the flat tees, friend. But there was movement on all tees that I listed. Not a deal breaker. Great course overall 👍
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ChrizZcE
Amateur Golfer
Posts: 153
TGCT Name: Christian Elsesser
Member is Online
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Post by ChrizZcE on Feb 24, 2021 12:55:53 GMT -5
P.S. I don't know what to tell you about flat tees, because lacking attention to detail is NOT a problem that we tend to be accused of. I know for a fact that I flattened them several times during the build, and it's also one of the final things on my checklist before publishing. I can tell you that they WERE flattened in the designer, many times.P.S.S. Find me a list of designers that make retaining walls better than me and Mayo. ;-) I think it might have to do with the designer being buggy. I noticed this problem especially with green sloping, but also with tee boxes. In the designer the slope will appear green, then when I playtest in the designer the slope is yellow from the exact same angle. When I then playtest under my unpublished courses the slope is again slightly different than when I playtest in the designer. It´s really frustrating and so far I thought I was the only one who had this problem.
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Post by Terry Grayson on Feb 24, 2021 12:57:43 GMT -5
Id like to comment on the retaining wall pic...
Mayo is about the only person Ive seen take a retaining wall and have it follow the lay of the land meaning thicker in spots, thinner etc, and not just a flat retaining wall around land
To accomplish this task you have to take the ridiculous amount of time to step down etc to get the walls to follow the lay of the land. Considering the iterations of the game we are given, there is no way to snap a wall and have it follow the land forms so you have to be creative....
Amazing work I say when you work your way around the areas of the wall.... sure it has some step downs but doesnt take away from my rounds
Not arguing either way and everyone has their right to their opinions, just thought Id point out whats behind making those walls look like they do in real life, yet having to show the step down method used
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mayday_golf83
TGCT Design Competition Directors
Posts: 2,279
TGCT Name: Jeremy Mayo
Tour: Elite
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Post by mayday_golf83 on Feb 24, 2021 13:13:37 GMT -5
P.S. I don't know what to tell you about flat tees, because lacking attention to detail is NOT a problem that we tend to be accused of. I know for a fact that I flattened them several times during the build, and it's also one of the final things on my checklist before publishing. I can tell you that they WERE flattened in the designer, many times.P.S.S. Find me a list of designers that make retaining walls better than me and Mayo. ;-) I think it might have to do with the designer being buggy. I noticed this problem especially with green sloping, but also with tee boxes. In the designer the slope will appear green, then when I playtest in the designer the slope is yellow from the exact same angle. When I then playtest under my unpublished courses the slope is again slightly different than when I playtest in the designer. It´s really frustrating and so far I thought I was the only one who had this problem. I was just chatting with Eric about this ... biggest issue to me seems when you grab a flatten brush, or reset it back to "0 ft 0 in," it's actually more like 0 ft, 0 1/4 in. There's just the most subtle of raises to it which can lend to some minor imperfections, especially if you're doing repeated flattens over a certain area. As I've stated previously, in a judging scenario, I'll only use the naked eye to see if a tee appears flat -- the biggest tell-tale is if the tee markers do not appear level. There's also a school of thought out there that tee boxes shouldn't be 100% perfectly flat for the purposes of drainage in an IRL scenario, but that's a debate for another time and another thread.
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Post by sroel908 on Feb 24, 2021 13:14:27 GMT -5
I think my frustration with the visible rooftop edges under water is not necessarily with the course designers themselves, but with the design program and tools. One should not have to bury city buildings under a pond or lake to achieve a realistic-looking body of water, or add one water table above another to get shorelines that look good. Like I said, I am trying to do this now on a course I'm building, and it's such a waste of time, but something that needs to be done to get a somewhat realistic and decent look.
But from what I can tell, lighting does play a role in how visible the roof lines are. So it's just something to consider when doing this trick in the future.
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Post by Q on Feb 24, 2021 13:24:14 GMT -5
I think my frustration with the visible rooftop edges under water is not necessarily with the course designers themselves, but with the design program and tools. One should not have to bury city buildings under a pond or lake to achieve a realistic-looking body of water, or add one water table above another to get shorelines that look good. Like I said, I am trying to do this now on a course I'm building, and it's such a waste of time, but something that needs to be done to get a somewhat realistic and decent look. But from what I can tell, lighting does play a role in how visible the roof lines are. So it's just something to consider when doing this trick in the future. something HB could EASILY do is just make every object scaleable in size, and voila, problem fixed
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Post by sroel908 on Feb 24, 2021 13:47:43 GMT -5
I think my frustration with the visible rooftop edges under water is not necessarily with the course designers themselves, but with the design program and tools. One should not have to bury city buildings under a pond or lake to achieve a realistic-looking body of water, or add one water table above another to get shorelines that look good. Like I said, I am trying to do this now on a course I'm building, and it's such a waste of time, but something that needs to be done to get a somewhat realistic and decent look. But from what I can tell, lighting does play a role in how visible the roof lines are. So it's just something to consider when doing this trick in the future. something HB could EASILY do is just make every object scaleable in size, and voila, problem fixed Bingo...amazing that this is an issue at all, for several reasons.
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Post by CLEANboxhero on Feb 24, 2021 13:55:29 GMT -5
I think it might have to do with the designer being buggy. I noticed this problem especially with green sloping, but also with tee boxes. In the designer the slope will appear green, then when I playtest in the designer the slope is yellow from the exact same angle. When I then playtest under my unpublished courses the slope is again slightly different than when I playtest in the designer. It´s really frustrating and so far I thought I was the only one who had this problem. I was just chatting with Eric about this ... biggest issue to me seems when you grab a flatten brush, or reset it back to "0 ft 0 in," it's actually more like 0 ft, 0 1/4 in. There's just the most subtle of raises to it which can lend to some minor imperfections, especially if you're doing repeated flattens over a certain area. As I've stated previously, in a judging scenario, I'll only use the naked eye to see if a tee appears flat -- the biggest tell-tale is if the tee markers do not appear level. There's also a school of thought out there that tee boxes shouldn't be 100% perfectly flat for the purposes of drainage in an IRL scenario, but that's a debate for another time and another thread. Will whole heatedly agree with many of the things in this quote and previous. I flatten all of my tees boxes religiously, mainly bc Im not going to enjoy when someone points out that there is minor movement. Just bringing attention to the fact the designer has it's flaws, and flat tees - when appearing to be flat - shape shift like an alien once publishing occurs, so it's a moot point. Same with greens. Many times I have an all green pin and when I play after publish, the pin will be yellow, even possibly orange... Which in turn is rated as a black mark upon the course. The game has significant flaws, and it stinks that some courses suffer from it. Wonderful course in the long run
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