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Post by trailducker on Jan 6, 2021 2:56:44 GMT -5
It is my pleasure to present my first ever Course Design. Welcome to Cape Trios Chutes D’eau Golf Club, nestled in a picturesque bay along the Oregon Coast. It is a Par 72 but with a little twist as the front nine has 3 Par 5’s and the back nine has 3 Par 3’s. I definitely learned a lot making this that I can hopefully take with me on future designs but also looking forward to everyone’s feedback. Course Design:The Course aesthetic is pretty heavily done in this game but obviously for good reason, a cliff side dunes/beach course with the Highland Theme. I was going for Bandon Dunes meets TPC Sawgrass with a little inspiration from Pebble Beach as well for this course. I tried to use dramatic elevation changes, wastebunkers, water hazards and various green and fairway undulations to promote focusing on the next shot as well as the one at hand while playing. There are four Tee options but I assume most will just use Black and that’s what I would suggest for the full experience. You will notice the tee box designs which is a nod to the cliffs this course is built on. I would also suggest starting at medium wind speeds to really get a feel for the course before venturing higher. Some holes the wind can be petty mean. West seems to be the one that is in your face on the worst holes for it to be and Northeast seems to be the wind that provides the most help. The green speeds aren’t set super high because there are some dramatic green moves that really promote accurate shot placement ( not Black Salt crazy haha). I designed it at full speed and firmness so it’s not impossible with the greens that high but accuracy and distance control is premium. All four pin placements give a wide range of approach types, I thought of it as a tournament and how to not make the same approach each hole for each pin set, so there isn’t one type that’s easier or harder necessarily. Assuming most would just play pin set 1 though, those pin placements are generally ones that make you interact with each hole design and descisions off the tee the most. Pin Set 4 are generally the most risk/reward set of pins for a final day of a tourney. Hole Highlights:#1: this hole is a tease to start out. Meant to entice those aggressive players with a drivable par 4, but you have to hit blindly over trees, threading between bunkers and holding possibly the most tretourous green on the course. While on this green you are in the highest spot on the course so make sure to take a pano. #2: You are introduced to the cliffs here. The distance might give a bit of sticker shock but this hole is straight downhill so it plays much less then it shows. You also are hitting to the largest green on the course (Reviewers, I know it's a bit oversized but that was intentional), but assuming most are taking a wedge another green that promotes accuracy. #3: While on the beach take a look front right of the hole for a view of one of the wonders of the Oregon Coast. #5 and #6 is the most tretourous two hole stretch with two tight drives toying with the cliffs on one side and a water hazard on the other as well as in both instances a middle hazard that’s just being spiteful. #6, #7, #10, #12 and #13 are my favorite fairway designs as they all offer unique decisions off the tee. Bombing the driver is not always the best options and taking the entire hole, the wind and pin placements fully into effect can shape how you approach these holes from the very first shot. There’s quite a few spots along that offer gorgeous views but #17 is definitely the money shot hole. You end on #18 with a skinny Par 5 along the cliff overlooking the bay with an interesting final surprise as you get to the green.
I hope everyone enjoys and please offer all your questions, praises, critiques. Any feedback or playthrougs will be greatly appreciated! I will offer some of my lessons learned and ways I will look to improve below. Lastly, big thank you to Crazycanuck1985 , b101 and mattf27 for your YouTube Channels which I watched a lot of; helping me learn the program and your techniques. Thank You as well to 15eicheltower9 for checking out some holes and providing valuable feedback as I finished things up. Thank You all and enjoy!
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Post by trailducker on Jan 6, 2021 3:00:54 GMT -5
Some lessons learned and ways I can get better: Green Slopes: I was a bit too deliberate with my green slopes. A little over half way through I started play testing more and realizing how drastic I was making the greens. I would go back flatten them out a bit, but didn't want to start over as I liked the moves I made. The last few holes the green sculping is worked in a bit better as I figured out a better way to start the green from scratch, so on a new course I can use that and have a bit more malleable of greens. Meter Issues: I ended at 98% objects and 100% File Size. I did no multiplanting and utilized auto-Gen a bit here and there. There are quite a few waterfalls and vehicles but still that’s a lot of meter. I tried to have tight routing but maybe could have done that better (I was really concerned at making holes not too close together and protecting from errant tee shots). I did want this to be a real heavy grass course (going for something like this look) and I lined the whole perimeter of cliffs and water hazards with grass but maybe could have lightened that. Also I tried a less dense way of planting the waste bunkers and didn’t like it to this more dense way that I used. but maybe I gave up on that too early and could have tried it better. More Flexibility in my designs: Because this was my first course I had things I really wanted to get in this but probably was a bit too rigid in that. On paper I drew out the routing and individual hole designs (also to save time) and a lot of that did change but I also could have been more malleable with those designs as well. I think that flexibility and not holding things so precious will naturally be easier on other courses rather than my very first one. Ready to learn more from anybody else offering their input!
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Post by trailducker on Jan 6, 2021 10:30:32 GMT -5
I just realized I had a dyslexic moment and Three in French is Trois not Trios Welp It's published so that's my shame Serves me right trying to be fancy and use a language I don't speak as the title
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Post by trailducker on Jan 7, 2021 17:08:10 GMT -5
Well didn't get Accepted. Was hoping any sculpting issues would have been outweighted by the course strategy. Man I speand so much time with brushes on bunker borders but can't figure out on long runs how to get them completely smooth. Probably will try and tackle spine bunkering next. Would still love some playthroughs and feedback but I do know it's a busy time so when people are able to. Here's a routing diagram I made
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Post by mctrees02 on Jan 7, 2021 17:29:02 GMT -5
trailducker I’ll be happy to get you a playthrough and some feedback. I have a designer stream coming up tonight at 830pm CT. If I have any energy left at the end, maybe 15eicheltower9 and I can give it a go. Otherwise I’l play it one of the next few mornings. I was unaware of Thor’s Well but now I have something else to stop at on my next Bandon trip as the plan is to go down 101 from Portland rather than I-5 to Anlauf.
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Post by trailducker on Jan 7, 2021 18:35:50 GMT -5
trailducker I’ll be happy to get you a playthrough and some feedback. I have a designer stream coming up tonight at 830pm CT. If I have any energy left at the end, maybe 15eicheltower9 and I can give it a go. Otherwise I’l play it one of the next few mornings. I was unaware of Thor’s Well but now I have something else to stop at on my next Bandon trip as the plan is to go down 101 from Portland rather than I-5 to Anlauf. Not sure the real life thing will serve justice to my video game version, but it's worth seeing in person
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Post by PicnicGuy / BobalooNOLA on Jan 8, 2021 11:42:08 GMT -5
I played it this morning, but as a TGCT 'heretic', I don't want to give specific feedback that may run counter to the review team's advice. I have 6 database courses, but they likely wouldn't make the cut these days, so my specifics won't probably help you with approval from them, LOL. I enjoyed a LOT of it, and your greens are very good, but I would sum up my overall experience by saying that 'Not far off' is generous when talking tournament-level aesthetics & fairness. WAAAY better than my first efforts, even taking the better designer features than TGC2 had into account. Keep on designing !
And, Thor's Well
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Post by trailducker on Jan 8, 2021 15:27:52 GMT -5
I am far from one of the big boys, but I'm under lockdown at the moment, so I'd be happy to record a play through of it and give you my thoughts. Will also help me practice recording on YouTube, and continue to develop a critical eye for courses. I'll pop it in this thread when I've got in done. In case Ben's not able to get to it: WhatAboutAMeobi I'll respond to you here to not muck up the Not Approved thread. Thank you so much for the playthrough! Some of the things I thought of as strategy might have came off as punishing so I will take more of that in account on my next course. I think you really saw that the last few holes I got a better master of the tools, especially on the greens. One advice I'd have for you on playthroughs is try on every hole to look at the overhead view of the hole before playing. At times (hole 7, hole 10, hole 13 for instance) you missed some of the strategy I was trying to envoke and took it as I was forcing a shot on you. I tried on every hole to make you think what is the best option not only for this shot but also for the next shot. So say on hole 7 someone could take a driver (with a little off it for the big hitters) to that spot on the right for pins 2 and 4. But wood on the left of the mound and just trying to avoid the tree works great for Pin 3. Pin 1 is kind of a choose you own adventure and yes it's at the pinch point of that green so in this case is probably the hardest of the pins. Same on whole 10 there was a spot a driver fits on the right but I wanted you to look ath the pin location and decide is that best? For some other pin locations then Pin 1 it may be and is how I played it when I play tested. Hole 13 had a whole angle on the right with a driver in a tight window but gave you a straight shot with no bunkers in front to the green. Not trying to sound diffensive if I do, just offering my advice for playthroughs as you continue. You mentioned it by Hole 11. A big lesson was I made my lifted Tees way too tight. I tried to make them as flat as I could but because they were so tight to the actual tee they begin sloping at the feet. I played Sophia Lake the other day and noticed doing a similar thing but with wood retaining walls for his tees (I actually had the first few like that then changed to the rocks). His tees are really wide which helps with that. I was so focused on just around the tee so that's a big issue I now see that I didn't before. But again thank you so much for it.
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Post by trailducker on Jan 8, 2021 15:35:10 GMT -5
I played it this morning, but as a TGCT 'heretic', I don't want to give specific feedback that may run counter to the review team's advice. I have 6 database courses, but they likely wouldn't make the cut these days, so my specifics won't probably help you with approval from them, LOL. I enjoyed a LOT of it, and your greens are very good, but I would sum up my overall experience by saying that 'Not far off' is generous when talking tournament-level aesthetics & fairness. WAAAY better than my first efforts, even taking the better designer features than TGC2 had into account. Keep on designing !
And, Thor's Well
Thank's so much for the feed back BobalooNOLA. I assume the reviewer meant "Not Far" from accepted? I wasn't expecting to get a tour but was hoping a may sneak in Accepted. haha but I see now what people were talking about. Again I keep harping I was too deliberate in my sculpting moves. The first few holes had a lot of bumps I thought created "randomness" on the ground but I think were just not realistic. I went back and multiple times and tried to flattenthem out but figuring out by eye that you all have what are random undulations and what are bad sculpting bumpiness is something that takes reps to learn (unless you're b101 and I'm assuming you just have the eye as an infint). Also most of the bunkers I think that ended bath tub-y were from adjustments to them for visability and not properly reflatting them after; I would make attempts but didn't follow through on every one. Which was again lessen learned that hopefully I can do better on my next try.
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Post by WhatAboutAmeobi on Jan 8, 2021 16:05:13 GMT -5
In case Ben's not able to get to it: WhatAboutAMeobi I'll respond to you here to not muck up the Not Approved thread. Thank you so much for the playthrough! Some of the things I thought of as strategy might have came off as punishing so I will take more of that in account on my next course. I think you really saw that the last few holes I got a better master of the tools, especially on the greens. One advice I'd have for you on playthroughs is try on every hole to look at the overhead view of the hole before playing. At times (hole 7, hole 10, hole 13 for instance) you missed some of the strategy I was trying to envoke and took it as I was forcing a shot on you. I tried on every hole to make you think what is the best option not only for this shot but also for the next shot. So say on hole 7 someone could take a driver (with a little off it for the big hitters) to that spot on the right for pins 2 and 4. But wood on the left of the mound and just trying to avoid the tree works great for Pin 3. Pin 1 is kind of a choose you own adventure and yes it's at the pinch point of that green so in this case is probably the hardest of the pins. Same on whole 10 there was a spot a driver fits on the right but I wanted you to look ath the pin location and decide is that best? For some other pin locations then Pin 1 it may be and is how I played it when I play tested. Hole 13 had a whole angle on the right with a driver in a tight window but gave you a straight shot with no bunkers in front to the green. Not trying to sound diffensive if I do, just offering my advice for playthroughs as you continue. You mentioned it by Hole 11. A big lesson was I made my lifted Tees way too tight. I tried to make them as flat as I could but because they were so tight to the actual tee they begin sloping at the feet. I played Sophia Lake the other day and noticed doing a similar thing but with wood retaining walls for his tees (I actually had the first few like that then changed to the rocks). His tees are really wide which helps with that. I was so focused on just around the tee so that's a big issue I now see that I didn't before. But again thank you so much for it. Thanks for the feedback and the view. I'm very new to doing play throughs, and I'm still just getting used to the fact that I'm talking while I'm playing. Certainly didn't help my game :-) I'm going to go back and play your course again with your suggestions to see what I missed, to help me for the next one I do. Thanks again!
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Post by trailducker on Jan 8, 2021 16:14:10 GMT -5
WhatAboutAMeobi I'll respond to you here to not muck up the Not Approved thread. Thank you so much for the playthrough! Some of the things I thought of as strategy might have came off as punishing so I will take more of that in account on my next course. I think you really saw that the last few holes I got a better master of the tools, especially on the greens. One advice I'd have for you on playthroughs is try on every hole to look at the overhead view of the hole before playing. At times (hole 7, hole 10, hole 13 for instance) you missed some of the strategy I was trying to envoke and took it as I was forcing a shot on you. I tried on every hole to make you think what is the best option not only for this shot but also for the next shot. So say on hole 7 someone could take a driver (with a little off it for the big hitters) to that spot on the right for pins 2 and 4. But wood on the left of the mound and just trying to avoid the tree works great for Pin 3. Pin 1 is kind of a choose you own adventure and yes it's at the pinch point of that green so in this case is probably the hardest of the pins. Same on whole 10 there was a spot a driver fits on the right but I wanted you to look ath the pin location and decide is that best? For some other pin locations then Pin 1 it may be and is how I played it when I play tested. Hole 13 had a whole angle on the right with a driver in a tight window but gave you a straight shot with no bunkers in front to the green. Not trying to sound diffensive if I do, just offering my advice for playthroughs as you continue. You mentioned it by Hole 11. A big lesson was I made my lifted Tees way too tight. I tried to make them as flat as I could but because they were so tight to the actual tee they begin sloping at the feet. I played Sophia Lake the other day and noticed doing a similar thing but with wood retaining walls for his tees (I actually had the first few like that then changed to the rocks). His tees are really wide which helps with that. I was so focused on just around the tee so that's a big issue I now see that I didn't before. But again thank you so much for it. Thanks for the feedback and the view. I'm very new to doing play throughs, and I'm still just getting used to the fact that I'm talking while I'm playing. Certainly didn't help my game :-) I'm going to go back and play your course again with your suggestions to see what I missed, to help me for the next one I do. Thanks again! Ohh and one more thing. I knew hole 6 was on the edge for both too tight of windows and unrealistic (as people will fall in it in real life so it wouldn't happen) but thought it's a video game and it's a striking thing visually to do. If I would have done it again I would have added 5-10 yards on both sides. It is fine to use a driver but you just have a tight window to hit it on either side. You may either play the wind and whatever you miss most (i usually aimed at the left edge of the canvern and hit on that left fairway because I tend to hit everything fast so slightly left) or for those with great control you can pay attention to the pin and chose your side based on that angle as two pins work better from each angle. So a hole like that that you seemed not to enjoy, that was my thought but seeing someone else besides me play it, it's so helpful to see how others think of things and address those situations. It's easy to get tunnel vision when you're the only one play testing.
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Post by WhatAboutAmeobi on Jan 8, 2021 16:41:17 GMT -5
Thanks for the feedback and the view. I'm very new to doing play throughs, and I'm still just getting used to the fact that I'm talking while I'm playing. Certainly didn't help my game :-) I'm going to go back and play your course again with your suggestions to see what I missed, to help me for the next one I do. Thanks again! Ohh and one more thing. I knew hole 6 was on the edge for both too tight of windows and unrealistic (as people will fall in it in real life so it wouldn't happen) but thought it's a video game and it's a striking thing visually to do. If I would have done it again I would have added 5-10 yards on both sides. It is fine to use a driver but you just have a tight window to hit it on either side. You may either play the wind and whatever you miss most (i usually aimed at the left edge of the canvern and hit on that left fairway because I tend to hit everything fast so slightly left) or for those with great control you can pay attention to the pin and chose your side based on that angle as two pins work better from each angle. So a hole like that that you seemed not to enjoy, that was my thought but seeing someone else besides me play it, it's so helpful to see how others think of things and address those situations. It's easy to get tunnel vision when you're the only one play testing. Yeah, I don't design but I can totally see how tunnel vision could be an issue. You've created your vision, play-tested it to your vision, and someone else may see it differently. which I could see creating a bunch of different emotions. I totally missed that space on 10 for driver and it changes how that hole plays. Sorry about that. For the others, when I say that shots felt forced on me, it wasn't that I didn't see the other options, it's that I saw them and didn't think they were viable based on how I see a course and play it. You had some cool ideas - just one or two didn't come off as I think you wanted them to, in my opinion. But this was your first course? You've got a great base to build from. I enjoyed playing your course and doing the play through / review. Thanks again!
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Post by trailducker on Jan 8, 2021 16:46:53 GMT -5
Ohh and one more thing. I knew hole 6 was on the edge for both too tight of windows and unrealistic (as people will fall in it in real life so it wouldn't happen) but thought it's a video game and it's a striking thing visually to do. If I would have done it again I would have added 5-10 yards on both sides. It is fine to use a driver but you just have a tight window to hit it on either side. You may either play the wind and whatever you miss most (i usually aimed at the left edge of the canvern and hit on that left fairway because I tend to hit everything fast so slightly left) or for those with great control you can pay attention to the pin and chose your side based on that angle as two pins work better from each angle. So a hole like that that you seemed not to enjoy, that was my thought but seeing someone else besides me play it, it's so helpful to see how others think of things and address those situations. It's easy to get tunnel vision when you're the only one play testing. Yeah, I don't design but I can totally see how tunnel vision could be an issue. You've created your vision, play-tested it to your vision, and someone else may see it differently. which I could see creating a bunch of different emotions. I totally missed that space on 10 for driver and it changes how that hole plays. Sorry about that. For the others, when I say that shots felt forced on me, it wasn't that I didn't see the other options, it's that I saw them and didn't think they were viable based on how I see a course and play it. You had some cool ideas - just one or two didn't come off as I think you wanted them to, in my opinion. But this was your first course? You've got a great base to build from. I enjoyed playing your course and doing the play through / review. Thanks again! That's what makes people like Ben so good. He can anticipate what others would do and think so his holes have such a wide range of playability. I also think part of it is I haven't owned this game until November or any of the TGC games. Owned some Tiger Woods games in the past but those are different playability-wise. So I also need to learn the game and how people play it a bit more as well. Ok I'll stop taking up more of you time, I really approciate the input and discussion! Already have two ideas in my head for two more courses so I'm going to tinker around with those. I CAUGHT THE BUG!
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Post by PicnicGuy / BobalooNOLA on Jan 8, 2021 17:08:24 GMT -5
Be aware that plenty of tournament players do NOT seem to look at the overheads.
Personally, I think it's their own fault for not opening the book on an open-book test.
My 'Murray's Spring' failed, and we went into a long discussion about the bunker in the fairway on #4 (play it at least that far & let me know what you think !) being unacceptable as it was just over a rise in the fairway from the tee view.
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Post by trailducker on Jan 8, 2021 17:40:03 GMT -5
Be aware that plenty of tournament players do NOT seem to look at the overheads. Personally, I think it's their own fault for not opening the book on an open-book test. My 'Murray's Spring' failed, and we went into a long discussion about the bunker in the fairway on #4 (play it at least that far & let me know what you think !) being unacceptable as it was just over a rise in the fairway from the tee view. I had this issue too with some of my bunkers around the greens. I sent screen shots to 15eicheltower9 and he helped me see aspects of them I wasn't seeing with my own narrow viewpoint. It led to me doing a last minute audit of all my bunkers and some rasing in areas I wanted them more visible which I think created some of the bath tub bunkers. At that point Ive looked at it so long I thought it was as good as it would get but maybe should have done another review especially of bunkers The tee scultping issue probably would have been my demise regardless because those took forever so I probably wouldn't have redone them haha Everytime I tried to flatten the tee box edges it just messed other sh%$ up, so I needed more space then I gave myself. DERP!
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