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Post by PicnicGuy / BobalooNOLA on Dec 27, 2020 7:47:34 GMT -5
... are there other significant courses that were an "only effort" by the architect/designer ?
Or is Fownes' relatively unique ?
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Post by b101 on Dec 27, 2020 8:16:55 GMT -5
Probably? Main one that springs to mind for me is George Crump of Pine Valley fame.
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Post by abowidow5712 on Dec 27, 2020 9:53:35 GMT -5
Hugh Wilson, Merion's architect, is in similar company with Henry Fownes. The story of Pine Valley is so unique. George Crump to my knowledge didn't even do most of the designing, but gets most of the credit. He was in charge of producing the golf course and bought the land. Harry Colt deserves most of the credit for the design in my opinon, but A.W. Tillinghast, George Thomas, William Flynn, C.B. MacDonald, Robert Hunter, Alister MacKenzie, Perry Maxwell, Charles Allison, Donald Ross, Walter Travis, and Hugh Wilson all deserve credit for their contributions too. There might even be somebody left out there. It was a collaboration of the greatest minds in golf course architecture. George Crump was smart enough to know he wasn't one of those minds, but was able to make Pine Valley a reality, still to this day the toughest/best golf course ever built. Because of this unique story and the perfect land the course was built on I don't think there will ever be a better golf course built. They say Pine Valley is one big bunker with islands of grass in between and that is exactly how it feels. I was fortunate enough to walk most of the course last winter. Even in the winter time it is a special place. Hugh Wilson was actually in charge of the project after George Crump died. He's credited with designing holes 12-15 which features some of the best holes on the course although there are truly 18 world class holes at Pine Valley. golfproperty.com/course-architects/hugh-wilson/
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Post by 15eicheltower9 on Dec 27, 2020 10:11:31 GMT -5
Not sure if King-Collins fits in here or not. But they have Sweetens Cove and I think that's it. I know they have a few under construction but finding info has always been a chore.
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Post by PicnicGuy / BobalooNOLA on Dec 27, 2020 11:13:29 GMT -5
I thought maybe PV, because it's SO unique, whereas Oakmont being a one-shot kind of surprised me. Reading it was actually a collaboration is intriguing. And I'm certainly even less informed about recent designers.
Thanks for good chat !
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Post by joegolferg on Dec 27, 2020 11:52:15 GMT -5
Hugh Wilson, Merion's architect, is in similar company with Henry Fownes. The story of Pine Valley is so unique. George Crump to my knowledge didn't even do most of the designing, but gets most of the credit. He was in charge of producing the golf course and bought the land. Harry Colt deserves most of the credit for the design in my opinon, but A.W. Tillinghast, George Thomas, William Flynn, C.B. MacDonald, Robert Hunter, Alister MacKenzie, Perry Maxwell, Charles Allison, Donald Ross, Walter Travis, and Hugh Wilson all deserve credit for their contributions too. There might even be somebody left out there. It was a collaboration of the greatest minds in golf course architecture. George Crump was smart enough to know he wasn't one of those minds, but was able to make Pine Valley a reality, still to this day the toughest/best golf course ever built. Because of this unique story and the perfect land the course was built on I don't think there will ever be a better golf course built. They say Pine Valley is one big bunker with islands of grass in between and that is exactly how it feels. I was fortunate enough to walk most of the course last winter. Even in the winter time it is a special place. Hugh Wilson was actually in charge of the project after George Crump died. He's credited with designing holes 12-15 which features some of the best holes on the course although there are truly 18 world class holes at Pine Valley. golfproperty.com/course-architects/hugh-wilson/Honestly don't know much about the history of how Pine Valley came about, but are you telling me that Crump was the Elon Musk of course architecture? Sort of the the middle man with the money and influence but almost no actual work was done by him in a theoretical or physical sense... interesting!
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Post by PicnicGuy / BobalooNOLA on Dec 27, 2020 13:16:44 GMT -5
Is there a truly representative Pine Valley for 2K21 we can play ? As noted in someone's rejection, the server has dozens that name, and not as efforts at an RCR. (whenever I type that I think Richard Childress Racing}
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Post by abowidow5712 on Dec 27, 2020 13:40:46 GMT -5
From what I've learned, researched, and was told by the assistant superintendent who gave us the tour there, George Crump was the organizer, not the architect. He wasn't good enough at the craft, but was the visionary with the money similar to Elon Musk. Without his vision though Pine Valley does not become reality. He stumbled across the land on his way to Atlantic City. He was there more than anybody else. He gathered the greatest minds together and used their advice. He bought the land which initially was only 180 acres of land and continued to buy parcels of land when they became available. The entire property at PVGC is over 600 acres. He never even saw the finished product. He unfortunately died the year it was completed. Crump certainly deserves a lot of the credit, but Harry Colt deserves his name next to Pine Valley every time it pops up, sometimes it doesn't. Colt was Crump's lead advisor and he's the designer of multiple world class Championship courses. George Crump owned hotels for a living. And A.W. Tillinghast's design philosophies are on display throughout the course, who is my favorite architect, I think he's the best. The "Philadelphia School of Architecture" is on full display where Tilly learned the craft. Crazy the amount of excellent Championship golf courses that stem from the area. Here's an interesting article I found earlier this morning. A little bit of history behind the greatest golf course ever built. golfclubatlas.com/courses-by-country/usa/pine-valley-golf-club/
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Post by abowidow5712 on Dec 27, 2020 13:48:36 GMT -5
Jack Neville and Douglas Grant, great amateur golfers, only design credit is Pebble Beach. Pretty good if you ask me.
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Post by Q on Dec 27, 2020 18:46:18 GMT -5
Jack Neville and Douglas Grant, great amateur golfers, only design credit is Pebble Beach. Pretty good if you ask me. Jack neville also designed the back nine at Pacific Grove, a stunning back 9 to be sure but that means he helped design more than one course!
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Post by jivesinator on Dec 28, 2020 2:49:40 GMT -5
Jack Neville and Douglas Grant, great amateur golfers, only design credit is Pebble Beach. Pretty good if you ask me. First thought was Pebble. Renovations have taken a lot of character away from that course, and aside from a couple particularly poor holes (curiously, the two par 3s that originally didn't overlook the ocean), the original design was fantastic considering the lack of experience from the duo. The best modern-day example I can think of (aside from Sweetens apparently) is Pikewood National, designed by Bob Gwynne and John Raese, a duo of mining company executives with no other design work. Though I'm not a big fan of the course, it's rated rather highly, though it should go without saying that it isn't exactly an equal to Oakmont, PV or Pebble.
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Post by Q on Dec 28, 2020 4:02:49 GMT -5
Jack Neville and Douglas Grant, great amateur golfers, only design credit is Pebble Beach. Pretty good if you ask me. First thought was Pebble. Renovations have taken a lot of character away from that course, and aside from a couple particularly poor holes (curiously, the two par 3s that originally didn't overlook the ocean), the original design was fantastic considering the lack of experience from the duo. The best modern-day example I can think of (aside from Sweetens apparently) is Pikewood National, designed by Bob Gwynne and John Raese, a duo of mining company executives with no other design work. Though I'm not a big fan of the course, it's rated rather highly, though it should go without saying that it isn't exactly an equal to Oakmont, PV or Pebble. 18 used to be a short par 4 as well! Judging by Pacific Grove which Jack Neville also designed, he seems to be a sucker for short par 3s as both courses have that 110 yard par 3. Actually wait, Jack Neville also helped design of the iterations of Lincoln Park! "Much like Egan, Neville had an accomplished amateur career coupled with a heralded career as a golf course architect. He began his career as a designer with a flourish, partnering with Jack Fleming to create Lincoln Park Golf Course in San Francisco. "He then partnered with Douglas Grant to create The Pebble Beach Golf Links. He also had an influence on such famous courses as the Bel Air Country Club and the Monterey Peninsula Country Club's Shore Course." Can Pebble really count at all then?
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Post by abowidow5712 on Dec 28, 2020 7:01:36 GMT -5
After further review I guess Neville and Grant don't belong on the list. Even Hugh Wilson is a stretch. Henry Fownes only design was Oakmont and George Crump's only design was Pine Valley however much he actually designed the course himself or not. He was definitely the driving force behind the idea and deserves a lot of the credit. Quote I found from Tilly, "Pine Valley is undoubtedly the greatest golf course on the continent, that it reflected the genius of one man and must ever be a tribute to his memory." That one man was George Crump. Pikewood National is a good modern day example, ranked #60 in the U.S.A. by golf.com
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Post by PicnicGuy / BobalooNOLA on Dec 28, 2020 8:37:29 GMT -5
Good stuff, everyone !
This from Wiki about PV ...
"This was Crump's first and only golf course design, but he brought together celebrated architects such as A.W. Tillinghast, Hugh Wilson, George C. Thomas Jr., Walter Travis, and H.S. Colt to help him create the course.[4] Crump set himself some idiosyncratic principles: no hole should be laid out parallel to the next; no more than two consecutive holes should play in the same direction; and players shouldn't be able to see any hole other than the one they were playing. He also felt that a round of golf on his course should require a player to use every club in the bag"
Two of those principles (parallel & sightlines of the rest of the course) certainly seem to fly in the face of current convention, yet his creation is year-in-year-out considered literally "The Best". The directional variation is one I try to adhere to, for sure.
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Post by tpetro on Dec 28, 2020 11:09:00 GMT -5
I would like to submit several hundred crappy munis across the country that clearly were not designed by golf course architects
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