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Post by PicnicGuy / BobalooNOLA on Dec 21, 2020 12:27:14 GMT -5
I don't mean as a glitch, but as in "in-game do they really exist to complain about" ?
There's a digital scorecard with overheads, and even if some don't use the gps/distance tool, looking at the card is part of the game even IRL.
If a golfer chooses not to, and then finds out a bunkers' existence by landing in it, that doesn't seem to be a design flaw, but a user error deserving of it's penal result.
And I say this as a designer who finds a lot of bunkers as a player 😁
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Post by Deleted on Dec 21, 2020 17:11:15 GMT -5
A response to blind shots - which this really is about.
A general rule of thumb - is to not have the landing area blind off the tee. Second rule of thumb, is that if you hit fairway, you should have clear visual on the green and flag. There are ofcourse exceptions - but not when it comes to have blind shots from fairway (the natural landing areas on fairway mind you) towards the green in my opinion. A third rule of thumb; if you have a landing area blind off the tee, the natural second shorter option should be clearly visible. So for instance - if a landing area with a driver is blind, the landing area for a wood or long iron option should be visible. For example for a dogleg hole - the dogleg should not come so soon that all options off the tee is blind shots - but it is perfectly fine to have the dogleg so the landing area for a driver is not visible due to for example trees etc.
For general bunker sculpting (fairway) - there is no reason to not have the high side towards the green - so in general, the natural way bunkers are sculpted will be visible. I would also say that this is quite important to the aesthetics of the course. Second, a high backside towards the green is making it easier to make the bunker strategic - or penal. I always advice from a golfer perspective never to have bunkers purely penal, but have a depth that makes it a question if you can clear the bunker lip or not - so you can make bunkers risk and reward. Having the bunker sculpted the natural way with a low side towards tee and high side towards green makes this easier and is more pleasing to look at.
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Post by charliehustle on Dec 21, 2020 18:24:17 GMT -5
I understand where you are coming from and agree with you to as much of an extent as I can. Blindness, in of itself its own hazard. If one wants to take their driver and bend that dogleg straight, they should accept the consequences of what could be lurking around the corner.
However, there are exceptions to every rule. I played your Murray's Spring course. The one that most recently was not approved. You had some blind bunkers right off the bat that didn't bother me at all because they were beyond the fairway. I felt as long as one can see the edge of the fairway, a bunker that is hidden in the rough beyond that point is fair game, whether you can see it or not.
BUT, on another hole you had a bunker that was midway up the fairway. Whereas depth perception perceives the fairway to be continuously extending. That was not the case. The problem was that there was a bunker that was hidden in the line of sight that was pretty unfair in that regard. This was off of a tee shot. So it wasn't a case of having a less than desirable lie off of a previous shot, which in that case it shouldn't be an issue
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Post by joegolferg on Dec 22, 2020 7:27:39 GMT -5
Absolutely nothing wrong with having a completely blind shot to the fairway and bunkers in play edging the fairway. Either check your overheads or get to know the course. #DealWithIt
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Post by PicnicGuy / BobalooNOLA on Dec 22, 2020 8:45:58 GMT -5
I understand where you are coming from and agree with you to as much of an extent as I can. Blindness, in of itself its own hazard. If one wants to take their driver and bend that dogleg straight, they should accept the consequences of what could be lurking around the corner. However, there are exceptions to every rule. I played your Murray's Spring course. The one that most recently was not approved. You had some blind bunkers right off the bat that didn't bother me at all because they were beyond the fairway. I felt as long as one can see the edge of the fairway, a bunker that is hidden in the rough beyond that point is fair game, whether you can see it or not. BUT, on another hole you had a bunker that was midway up the fairway. Whereas depth perception perceives the fairway to be continuously extending. That was not the case. The problem was that there was a bunker that was hidden in the line of sight that was pretty unfair in that regard. This was off of a tee shot. So it wasn't a case of having a less than desirable lie off of a previous shot, which in that case it shouldn't be an issue Once again, did you use the overhead information Not my fault some choose to play the game partially uninformed, is it ? I will warm up on it and see if I can figure out which hole, since nobody can actually seem to remember it to tell me. Maybe it was unintentional, we shall see. It all seemed copacetic to me, but the ability to play it as if for the first time is tough. My PS playing pal (WGR top 500} had no issues he passed on to me, but sometimes a bunker isn't an issue until you're in it. In fact, I don't think I've ever complained about a hazard I avoided 😜
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Post by PicnicGuy / BobalooNOLA on Dec 22, 2020 8:51:38 GMT -5
Absolutely nothing wrong with having a completely blind shot to the fairway and bunkers in play edging the fairway. Either check your overheads or get to know the course. #DealWithIt 'Real' golfers don't have to see every target, even without a scorecard diagram ! In-game, it's even less important, since mishits are usually still pretty good shots compared to real-life skull or shank. IN. MY. OPINION. Lest folks get feisty pretending this is a factual discussion.
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Post by b101 on Dec 22, 2020 9:01:43 GMT -5
Happy to have the discussion on the role of blind bunkers, but that's not why you're here. You want justification as to why your course wasn't approved... Still, addressing the topic at hand and trying to help those who want to listen: Good blind bunkers serve a strategic purpose (i.e. "you've tried to cut a corner and not reached the fairway" or "you've hit to the wrong side of the fairway so this side of the green is out of view"). Bad blind bunkers are unintentionally blind, serve no strategic purpose by being blind and are only blind because the designer hasn't bothered to sculpt them. I'll let you use the pictures below to work out which are good and which are not. The reason we don't list which ones they are on your course is because a) you can see for yourself and b) because it's literally every other. "View" of the greenside bunkers: Actual: Again, "view": And a close up of WHY they are blind.
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Post by PicnicGuy / BobalooNOLA on Dec 22, 2020 9:03:08 GMT -5
A response to blind shots - which this really is about. A general rule of thumb - is to not have the landing area blind off the tee. Second rule of thumb, is that if you hit fairway, you should have clear visual on the green and flag. There are ofcourse exceptions - but not when it comes to have blind shots from fairway (the natural landing areas on fairway mind you) towards the green in my opinion. A third rule of thumb; if you have a landing area blind off the tee, the natural second shorter option should be clearly visible. So for instance - if a landing area with a driver is blind, the landing area for a wood or long iron option should be visible. For example for a dogleg hole - the dogleg should not come so soon that all options off the tee is blind shots - but it is perfectly fine to have the dogleg so the landing area for a driver is not visible due to for example trees etc. For general bunker sculpting (fairway) - there is no reason to not have the high side towards the green - so in general, the natural way bunkers are sculpted will be visible. I would also say that this is quite important to the aesthetics of the course. Second, a high backside towards the green is making it easier to make the bunker strategic - or penal. I always advice from a golfer perspective never to have bunkers purely penal, but have a depth that makes it a question if you can clear the bunker lip or not - so you can make bunkers risk and reward. Having the bunker sculpted the natural way with a low side towards tee and high side towards green makes this easier and is more pleasing to look at. Well, this explains a lot ... About what, exactly, I'll just keep to myself. We generally agree on bunker design, if not placement.
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Post by PicnicGuy / BobalooNOLA on Dec 22, 2020 9:06:35 GMT -5
Ben, you just can't leave me alone, can you We were having a fine discussion on a general topic, which may come up again. I'm done discussing the review with you, we had our chance ... Save it for that thread or PM, please !!! Plus on my tablet the pics are very, very, small.
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Post by b101 on Dec 22, 2020 9:12:01 GMT -5
I understand where you are coming from and agree with you to as much of an extent as I can. Blindness, in of itself its own hazard. If one wants to take their driver and bend that dogleg straight, they should accept the consequences of what could be lurking around the corner. However, there are exceptions to every rule. I played your Murray's Spring course. The one that most recently was not approved. You had some blind bunkers right off the bat that didn't bother me at all because they were beyond the fairway. I felt as long as one can see the edge of the fairway, a bunker that is hidden in the rough beyond that point is fair game, whether you can see it or not. BUT, on another hole you had a bunker that was midway up the fairway. Whereas depth perception perceives the fairway to be continuously extending. That was not the case. The problem was that there was a bunker that was hidden in the line of sight that was pretty unfair in that regard. This was off of a tee shot. So it wasn't a case of having a less than desirable lie off of a previous shot, which in that case it shouldn't be an issue I will warm up on it and see if I can figure out which hole, since nobody can actually seem to remember it to tell me. Maybe it was unintentional, we shall see. Well, this thread is clearly about the review you didn't like and the post above asked for specifics, in your own words. I've given you screenshots of the holes in question as well as an explanation. You just want to rant.
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Post by PicnicGuy / BobalooNOLA on Dec 22, 2020 9:21:03 GMT -5
This thread s about EXACTLY what it says in it's first post, seeing how this p.o.v. stands with the public at large, whether they played my course (which I did not mention AT ALL) or never heard of it.
I did my best to shrug of the one vaguely specific reply with 'I'll look into it'... Several other responders seemed to 'get' that.
Buh-bye, now.
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Post by joegolferg on Dec 22, 2020 10:55:22 GMT -5
So, there was an ulterior motive to this thread...
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Post by charliehustle on Dec 22, 2020 10:55:29 GMT -5
I understand where you are coming from and agree with you to as much of an extent as I can. Blindness, in of itself its own hazard. If one wants to take their driver and bend that dogleg straight, they should accept the consequences of what could be lurking around the corner. However, there are exceptions to every rule. I played your Murray's Spring course. The one that most recently was not approved. You had some blind bunkers right off the bat that didn't bother me at all because they were beyond the fairway. I felt as long as one can see the edge of the fairway, a bunker that is hidden in the rough beyond that point is fair game, whether you can see it or not. BUT, on another hole you had a bunker that was midway up the fairway. Whereas depth perception perceives the fairway to be continuously extending. That was not the case. The problem was that there was a bunker that was hidden in the line of sight that was pretty unfair in that regard. This was off of a tee shot. So it wasn't a case of having a less than desirable lie off of a previous shot, which in that case it shouldn't be an issue Once again, did you use the overhead information Not my fault some choose to play the game partially uninformed, is it ? I will warm up on it and see if I can figure out which hole, since nobody can actually seem to remember it to tell me. Maybe it was unintentional, we shall see. It all seemed copacetic to me, but the ability to play it as if for the first time is tough. My PS playing pal (WGR top 500} had no issues he passed on to me, but sometimes a bunker isn't an issue until you're in it. In fact, I don't think I've ever complained about a hazard I avoided 😜 I went back to see exactly what hole it was that I www referring to. It is HOLE #4. However, the first three holes also had blind bunkers as well. Again, because they weren't placed in an area that would impede upon a perceived landing area, they were not a problem for me. They had no effect on a well-placed shot and were only penal on a mis-hit. The hole #4 bunker is hidden within the extended plane of the fairway. Yes, I understand that viewing the book is an option, however it is just that, an option. Meaning the book itself can be disabled, same with the scout cam. Basically, hole #4 is to an extent, "unplayable" without certain aids.
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Post by b101 on Dec 22, 2020 11:13:11 GMT -5
So, there was an ulterior motive to this thread... Might as well turn it into something good. Front (Sahara) bunkers on the Alps are something I’ve grown to appreciate much more the more I’ve learned about strategy. With this one, the green is very receptive, so it’s about testing contact and commitment to the club on a long approach. Without it (as I’ve done in the past), the shot is much more benign. For those not familiar with template architecture: thefriedegg.com/alps-template-hole/
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Post by PicnicGuy / BobalooNOLA on Dec 22, 2020 11:31:42 GMT -5
Hey, all, I didn't bring up my course, and I'd have been happier if, like joegolferg, it had been a general opinion discussion. I am done with that I won't be responding to any comments about my particular works here. Thanks for understanding.
"Meaning the book itself can be disabled, same with the scout cam. "
And I COULD play with my eyes closed. But I shouldn't expect to do as well as someone who has them open, now should I ?
If we ever play together IRL, and my partner finds a hazard because they didn't look at the scorecard map, you can bet I won't blame it on the designer. Does that make me a bad friend ?
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