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Post by theclv24 on Dec 14, 2020 23:28:44 GMT -5
I had hinted at doing this one, and after starting it a week or so ago I'm enjoying it, so away we go.
You all have access to the original version of this course, both in my library and now the official course library, so I won't belabor you with before/after pics. My goal was to restore the modern day course in the Motor City with something maybe Donald Ross might recognize, but updated to today's standards. I don't know if the final result will include tournament objects, or if I'll do both versions or anything like that, so for now you will see the objects but don't necessarily count on them, if that makes sense.
I found a 1951 aerial of the course, which I won't share because it is watermarked, and it seemed like a good jumping off point. There are some significant differences to some holes from then to now, and it also helps me see original bunker positioning and style. I decided to focus on these main elements while designing:
- Use the current tournament routing (starts on the present day 8th hole), and try to alter some areas to keep the tournament version of the course all on the North course. No holes will be borrowed from the South for a composite routing. - Keep the original design intent for most holes, but with bunkers in place for modern lengths. - Add more interest and naturalness to bunker shapes, more like the 1951 aerial. - Expand greens to cover entire fillpad, at minimum. - Where possible, revert changes made over time to follow original routing.
I'll try to do updates 3 holes at a time, so here are the first 3. I haven't done any planting updates, btw, so it's all stock Rustic stuff.
Hole 1 - 1951 aerial shows a bunker complex on the right side of the fairway. This may have been just for visual purposes, as it is near the beginning of the fairway. I restored this complex. It's not in play, but provides a visual element. - The green seems to have a more protected left side, meaning the right side of the fairway should be protected, not the left as in the current hole. I created a complex of bunkers that will test longer drives, while playing short along the right side is still a good play for left pins. - Increased the green size as much as the location allowed, and reshaped bunkers closer to 1951 shapes. Going for a somewhat flat-bottom style, with a little bit of sand flashed faces here and there to help with visuals. - Ever so slightly accentuated the current green contours, making a bigger backstop at the back of the green, and bigger shoulder on the left. Sharpened the green edges for a steeper fall off.
Hole 2 - Brought the complex of bunkers on the right slightly in towards the fairway and lengthened them. The strategy of the hole is choosing to challenge the bunkers on the right vs the OB on the left. - Eliminated the center bunker, which was not reachable and would only punish high handicappers. - Reshaped and resculpted greenside bunkers, and added original mid-length bunker on the right. From tee to green, the string of bunkers now presents visual intimidation, while the OB lurks on the left. - Enlarged the green, and accentuated mounds in the back middle and front middle.
Hole 3 Here's one of the biggest changes on the front 9. At this point the tournament course would play to the South course 1st green, since the North course hole here only plays maybe about 350. An extended tee for the next hole, a par 5, plays directly over the original North course green here. I wanted to keep a North course hole here to be used, but avoid the crossing tee shot from the 4th without giving up too much length. My solution is a driveable par 4, dogleg left that hugs the trees on the left. The tee for the 4th hole moves slightly left and forward, still giving the hole plenty of length, and solving a routing issue. This is also why I kept the tournament routing, because starting with a hole like this isn't really advisable for course congestion, but should be more palatable here.
- Even though the original 1951 is straight like the modern hole, I tried to incorporate a large left bunker that dominates the sightline, and a somewhat similar bunkering concept throughout the hole.
- The strategy of the hole is a green heavily sloped and tiered from high left to low right. Aggressive tee shots that head left off the tee not only contend with trees, but also a green working against them. The curve of the hole means the farther right that you hope to safely play, the farther back you have to lay up from the tee. - On the right side I incorporated a drainage ditch, a la Oakmont. I don't have any visual evidence, but I read that Ross used ditches around the course as a hazard, due to the lack of elevation change available on the course. The ditch on the 18th hole is probably the only current day example, so I might use some of these in other areas around the course, as well.
(sorry, apparently I shut down before getting a good shot of the green)
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Post by theclv24 on Dec 15, 2020 16:03:44 GMT -5
Here's the current routing of the tournament course, for reference. The hole on the left is from the South Course, and plays as the current 3rd hole. The tee shot for the 4th then plays across the green of the unused hole on the North Course. You can see where the current tee box is, where the fans are. My tee box would be on the other side of the tree to the left of the tee box, snugging up against the boundary fence. The two trees that you see straight ahead, which the cart path hooks around, would be eliminated.
And here's a pic of my 3rd green which I forgot to past last night. The drainage ditch is in the foreground.
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mal
Amateur Golfer
Posts: 214
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Post by mal on Dec 17, 2020 14:14:07 GMT -5
Amazing stuff... were cart paths added to the course in the 50's? Some stuff I am sure you are already familiar with... Ross
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Post by theclv24 on Dec 17, 2020 15:20:58 GMT -5
Amazing stuff... were cart paths added to the course in the 50's? Some stuff I am sure you are already familiar with... Ross
I can make out some paths, but I can't tell what the surfaces are. That's definitely something to consider in my fictional remodel. I'd prefer as few paths as possible.
And no, you give me too much credit on the Ross stuff! Interesting what stayed the same and what changed in the routing. I think he underestimated the eventual clubhouse footprint, so the routing ended up a little different. Sadly the clubhouse is more highly rated than the course these days.
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Post by theclv24 on Dec 23, 2020 14:09:25 GMT -5
Breaking from my 3 hole updates and just posting the par 5 4th hole today. Holes 5-7 are the most substantial updates in the whole project, I believe, and are very intertwined, so I will do those 3 holes together once they are ready.
Nothing too substantial has changed with this hole in comparison to the current tournament hole. I've tweaked a bunch of bunkers, but not much has changed from a strategy standpoint, except the tee shot. Let's start with the aerial:
The current hole has bunkers left that affect the tee shot, and the right side is open save for the practice area, which is OB, but not really in play very often from what I can tell. There are two bunkers down the left side of the hole, and then two bunkers greenside. Therefore, the modern play is to stay right for the entire hole. It's pretty automatic and mindless.
The 1951 aerial has a series of small, very thin bunkers along the right fairway, between the fairway and practice area. I'm not sure how in play they actually were, as they seem to be past the driving zone, so maybe they were just a visual deterrent to prevent players from playing towards the practice ground. The original Ross drawing does feature a large right side bunker that cuts into the fairway at the far end of the driving zone, though. I mimicked this bunker at today's lengths. This means that any attempt to go long on the hole requires a drive down the left side of the fairway. A tee shot that finds the left bunkers or rough now has to contend with the cross bunkers. I kept the first cross bunker in place and made it slightly larger, to look more like the Ross drawing. The second cross bunker is not in the Ross drawing, nor is it in the 1951 aerial, but it's in pretty much the perfect place to challenge approach shots that can't quite reach the green.
I made the green larger, as usual, and filled in a bunker on the right side. The right bunker is featured in both the aerial and the drawing, and in today's course it is almost like a grass bunker. There is no left greenside bunker in 51, but there is in the drawing. I tried going without it, but things didn't seem to flow quite right without it. As in the first two greens, most of the contours are similar to today, only just slightly accentuated.
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Post by theclv24 on Dec 27, 2020 13:54:35 GMT -5
This is an update for holes 5-7. The updates for these holes are all very intertwined, so as I begin writing this I have no idea of what order this will come out in, or what screenshots I will use. I just hope the final product is readable!
So I think I have to start with the 7th hole, since the changes there alter the playing experience of the 5th hole, and require the 6th hole to be significantly altered. The original routing for DGC featured a dogleg right 7th hole, with the green tucking right in behind the 5th green. At some point, (in the 60's I believe, and by Robert Trent Jones, also an educated guess) the hole was changed into a dogleg left, with the green now reaching into the very northwest corner of the property. Considering the result, this seems like a horrendous decision. Perhaps there was some kind of maintenance issue that I am not privy to, but it feels like it was done either to add a back tee to the 6th hole, or to allow for cartpaths to be added in between the various greens and tees of holes 5-8.
Let's look at the difference in routing. This was early in the re-routing stage, you can see where the old green is on the left, and the new green going to the right.
Now let's consider the strategy, and I use that term loosely, of the modern 7th hole. There is OB down the left side, and a bunker along the left of the fairway. There is a large tree to the front left of the green which, combined with the angle of the green, makes coming in from the right side of the fairway most preferable. This means the play off the tee is down the right side, away from the bunker, and away from the OB. What? What's the point of the bunker, to encourage you to play AWAY from the OB, and to the preferable angle?
So check this out, it's a dogleg right now, and an original cluster of bunkers cuts in on the RIGHT side. The preferable angle to the green is now the left side of the fairway, meaning if you want an advantage on the second shot, you have to play towards the OB. Imagine that! And a bailout to the right finds bunker, which effectively ends your hopes of reaching the green, and requires a significant layup to avoid the cross bunkers.
I'm probably being a smarty pants here, and this is all probably stuff that's harder than it looks. Some of this stuff just seems so obvious though!
Continuing up the 7th hole, the area of the new green had a fairly significant and somewhat natural back to front tilt. Since this isn't an overly long par 5, it gave me the idea to have a green with a significant false front, effectively halving the size of the green. There was also a drainage ditch in Ross' original plan circling the area of both greens, some of which can still be seen in today's lidar data, even though those areas are mown down now. In this screenshot you will see that the ditch curls around the back of the green, making going long a severe punishment.
I'm going to break this up for readability, but in addition to just being a better hole, one of the main reasons for using the original dogleg right 7th is the effect on the 5th hole. When teeing up on the 5th, would you rather be looking at some open grass and houses in the distance beyond the green, or this?
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Post by theclv24 on Dec 27, 2020 14:03:45 GMT -5
Let me repost that view from the 5th tee again.
And look at the complex of bunkers you now get around the playing areas of these two holes coming together!
Some other notes: - the 5th green was expanded, like the others, to fit in what appears to be it's original space. There was some extra rough space along the right side, before the dropoff, that clearly should have been green. There is also a little more front left tongue between the bunkers. - the green edges were sharpened - the bunkers were slightly reshaped to look more like the originals - some minor sculpting work on the green to add interest - as seen in the top screenshot, the drainage ditch has been added back in and allowed to grow. The original ran through this entire north end of the property, and can still be seen today in many places.
Because of these changes, the back tee for the 6th hole was sacrificed. Let's look next at what that means for the 6th hole.
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Post by theclv24 on Dec 27, 2020 14:44:30 GMT -5
Before eliminating the back tee at the 6th hole, it was already having some issues. If you consider the open entrance to the green, and Ross' original drawing of a center bunker well short of the green, I have to believe this was intended to play as a long par 4. Today's hole has the open green entrance, although no center bunker, and has one lone fairway bunker which is likely not far enough to make the average Tour player think twice about it. Like many holes, it's a driver-wedge show.
Now that the hole is even shorter, what can be done? Let's talk about spacing.
Beyond the current 6th hole there is an open space, to the left of the 2nd hole and behind the 7th tee. In the original Ross drawing, this area is labeled as "Garden". I don't know what that means or what was intended, but until a few years ago it seems to have vacillated between unused rough space and a maintenance nursery, or whatever you call the area where they grow sod for repairs. Now it seems to be some sort of practice green area, meaning to get there from the existing practice area golfers have to cross the 2nd fairway. Facepalm.
This seems like where the 6th green should be.
Does that make things a little tight, and perhaps a bit dangerous? And does the proximity of the new 6th tee to the 5th and 7th green complexes also pose a risk, perhaps prompting the original redesign of the 7th hole? I'm going to say no. My argument:
1. This is a private club, not a resort course. Members know members, and are much more likely to face responsibility for causing injury due to an errant shot, and therefore are generally more responsible in alerting others of an incoming ball. Also they are generally better players. 2. There are some existing trees that would be behind the new 6th green, which some would think would offer some protection from wayward 2nd hole drives. I would actually get rid of these, making for an open sightline from the 2nd tee to 6th green. I don't have evidence, although I feel like I read this somewhere, that being able to see other golfers allows you to more effectively issue a warning of an incoming ball. If you can't see other golfers, it tends to be an out of sight, out of mind situation, and allows for a "sorry I didn't know you were there" get out of jail free card for not yelling fore. 3. To bolster the 2nd point, I think of the area around the 14th at Oakmont. As far as I know, the conglomeration of holes here hasn't been a problem for the membership:
Ok, let's get to the new hole and wrap this up.
The cluster of bunkers that cuts into the right side of the 7th hole driving zone is not in play here, but it offers framing for the hole.
Both the original drawing and 1951 aerial seem to indicate a lack of bunkers in the driving zone, making today's lone bunker out of place. Both the modern hole and 51 hole seem to have a framing bunker down the left side, though, which would just about be in play at the new tee length. I used this cue to add a pair of bunkers on the left that would only be in play with a major bomb. This takes away the mindless drive for the bomber, while stay letting the hole play as originally intended for the average hitter.
The 51 hole featured a pair of right greenside bunkers, as opposed to today's single, not very intimidating bunker. I decided to use the triple bunker scheme that you see here. This incorporates the double greenside bunkers, and the 3rd bunker farther away from the green somewhat imitates the intention of the original Ross center bunker. For a short drive or one that finds trouble, this now becomes a decision point on whether or not it can be cleared. Additionally, the large fairway bunkers from the 2nd hole creep in a little bit from the left. It will take a big miss to land in them, but they provide a visual threat.
Lastly, today's green has a pretty defined back tier and front tier. I know Ross is hard to pin down, but I don't have him as a Tier guy. I'm going to guess that was a RTJ or Arthur Hills feature. I tried to make the back to front element flow more naturally, with some shoulders creeping in around the edges to affect shots. In the last two shots you can also see another original drainage ditch running between 2 and 6. This one is pretty small and probably more in play for the 2nd hole, but it's an added feature on a course that can otherwise be pretty feature-less.
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Post by theclv24 on Dec 29, 2020 22:01:53 GMT -5
Wrapping up the front 9 here. On the 8th hole there seems to have been two bunkers cutting across the middle of the fairway, not that short of the green. There was also a left fairway bunker that squeezed in the landing area short of the cross bunkers. It seems that the closer you wanted to get off the tee, the harder the shot was. I've restored that setup here.
Compare that to the modern hole, where there are no cross bunkers, although the bank where the cross bunkers were still cuts across the fairway. There are two bunkers along the right edge of the fairway which punish shots lost to the right, but otherwise don't affect strategy, and the left side bunker is 30-40 yards shorter, again hardly affecting tee decisions.
I haven't changed the green too much. Just a little bit of expansion, and modifying the slope for some pin positions. This is one of the better greens on the modern course, imo.
The 9th hole didn't require much. There clearly were more bunkers on this hole in 1951. I added two more bunkers on the left, the early framing bunker at the beginning of the fairway on the right, and expanded and reshaped the right greenside bunker.
A lot of the greens at DGC hit the same note, with sort of a front bowl and a back shelf, often with a mound at the back middle of the green. That's exactly what this green was like, and I can't imagine Ross would have designed so many greens to be so similar. So here I made a more consistent slope from back to front, with a more severe false front for the first few yards. The green shoulders and an inner mound create the interest.
In the 8-9 screenshots you may notice that I've been doing some replanting around the nearby 1st hole. Not only am I switching out to more newly available trees in 2k21, but I'm also trying to thin out the trees in areas where I don't think they are necessary, or where sightlines can be opened up. You can see it a little bit in the 8th fairway shot, where the abundance of bunkers on the 9th are coming into view more clearly. I've also opened things up behind the 1st green, to bring that 5th-7th complex into view.
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mal
Amateur Golfer
Posts: 214
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Post by mal on Dec 29, 2020 22:10:22 GMT -5
Looking great and thanks for the continued updates... I can think of a few other Ross courses that could use a CLV refresh for game purposes.
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Post by theclv24 on Jan 9, 2021 21:21:33 GMT -5
It's been awhile since the last update, but I've been working on this steadily. Most of the time has been spent updating the planting on the front 9 and clubhouse, including an inordinate amount of time on backyards and patios. New trees, and many fewer of them, have opened up some sightlines, which I tried to highlight in the screenshots. It's not a great course for sightlines, but at least it's better than it was.
I'm going to put a bunch of pics in, continue on to the next post for an update on holes 10-12.
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Post by theclv24 on Jan 9, 2021 21:48:24 GMT -5
I have a problem with a lot of the holes on the current back 9, so you'll see a lot of features from both the Ross routing and the 1951 aerial incorporated here.
The play on the current 10th hole is to carry a drive over all of the bunkers, and then have a wedge or pitch shot into the green. I leaned almost exclusively on the Ross drawing for my update.
I expanded the left fairway bunker and moved the right side bunkers closer to the green. The angle that they are at in relation to the left bunker means you need to control your distance unless you can really hug the left side. The left greenside bunker is now more prominent, and the main hazard as opposed to the current bunker left-bunker right setup, with a wide open front. Lastly, I incorporated some cross bunkers short of the green which were featured in the Ross drawing. You will see various kinds of framing bunkers like these featured throughout the back 9. They shouldn't come into play in most circumstances, but that add a visual element to a bunch of holes currently suffering from a lack of identity. The green is slightly expanded, with a little more of a back left tongue, and a more exaggerated false front.
The 11th hasn't changed much, as it's a long par 3 that doesn't need much more defense. Most of the changes are visual. There are two cross bunkers before the fairway now, and the thinning of trees means there are now sightlines to both the 12th and 13th holes.
As usual, this green is expanded, and again, the area with the most gained space is the back left. The two prominent features on the green which I've accentuated are a front left pocket, and a back right quadrant plateau.
In the aerial shot you can see the 12th on top, with the 13th running parallel in the other direction. I've worked on 13, but it's not quite done or fully ready for pictures yet. You'll get the gist of the updates though.
The 12th is another hole that lacks much of a soul, whereas I believe this southeast pocket has a much better vibe with more open corridors and more bunkering to look at. The cross bunkers, along with the added left fairway bunker, are original Ross features. The left bunker was around in 51, but I made it more prominent than it seemed to be at that time.
The current 12th green is quite uneventful, so it matches the rest of the hole. Upon green expansion once again there is more back left space, with a little bowl back there. This green has some falloff at the front left, making for a nice front left pin. The right side of the green is pretty severe, so there are some tough pins on that side. There is a decent amount of sameness on greens 10-12, so I tried my best to inject little bits of difference and accentuate different features on each one. Hopefully these changes, along with the visual enhancements, make the 10-13 stretch more memorable.
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Post by theclv24 on Jan 12, 2021 16:06:55 GMT -5
The 13th hole looks about the same as the aerial shot I posted the other day of the 12th hole, with just some slight bunker changes.
The farthest fairway bunker on the right is in the same place as today's bunker, just expanded some. This bunker is a pretty easy flyover in most winds, so I took advantage of space behind the tee and lengthened the tee, rather than moving the bunker. The rest of the bunkers are visual additions for the most part.
The cross bunker before the green seems to have existed in previous renditions of the course, although it is not there today. When you consider the cross bunker and two greenside bunkers, it brings to mind the 14th at Pinehurst, a Ross hole that I've always enjoyed the look of.
This green is one of the more interesting on the modern course, so I didn't touch it much. One addition you may notice, however, is the bunker behind the green. Ross wasn't really known for bunkers behind the green, but then again he wasn't against them either, used sparingly. I added it here because I thought it would improve the visuals coming up the 11th hole. What do you think?
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Post by theclv24 on Jan 12, 2021 16:20:46 GMT -5
Other than the 7th hole, the 14th is where the biggest changes come in. Normally when you fire up the official DGC course in the game, you can't miss the monstrous Rocket Mortage getup in the 14th pond.
Guess what? The pond didn't exist in 1951, nor was it in Ross' plans. Now I don't know much about course construction, but I have to imagine that removing/filling a pond has to be one of the most expensive and hard to successfully golf projects you could think of. Therefore, this might eliminate the chances of this change ever happening in real life, but the pond is gone now.
Instead, as in the original plans, and as you can still kind of see on the ground in various places, many of the back 9 holes had drainage ditches cutting through all over the place. The 14th hole featured a ditch down the entire left side of the hole, which I have recreated.
The lone fairway bunker on the modern course is deep, maybe something like 330 if I'm not mistaken. I've moved it maybe 10 yards closer to the tee and added a second bunker, angled such that you need to start hugging the left side and the ditch if you want to get maximum distance.
The original Ross plan featured a center line bunker, which I've recreated. The hole is reachable in two, so this center bunker will mostly be a factor for tee shots that miss the fairway. The green retains its current angle, with the ditch running near, along with two fronting bunkers, and two mostly visual bunkers on the other side of the ditch. This setup doesn't have the all or nothing factor that the pond provides, but instead results in numerous different kind of short game situations you could find yourself in after going for the green.
The current green has a tier running lengthwise that splits the surface in two. Like I've said previously, I don't think Ross was into defined tiers. I've split the tier up in the middle, so there is still a sort of back ledge, and slope near the front middle/right that affects 3 of the 4 other pins.
I didn't do much to the 15th, and I have update pics, but I have to run so that update will come later tonight.
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Post by blueblood1995 on Jan 12, 2021 16:34:30 GMT -5
The 13th hole looks about the same as the aerial shot I posted the other day of the 12th hole, with just some slight bunker changes.
The farthest fairway bunker on the right is in the same place as today's bunker, just expanded some. This bunker is a pretty easy flyover in most winds, so I took advantage of space behind the tee and lengthened the tee, rather than moving the bunker. The rest of the bunkers are visual additions for the most part.
The cross bunker before the green seems to have existed in previous renditions of the course, although it is not there today. When you consider the cross bunker and two greenside bunkers, it brings to mind the 14th at Pinehurst, a Ross hole that I've always enjoyed the look of.
This green is one of the more interesting on the modern course, so I didn't touch it much. One addition you may notice, however, is the bunker behind the green. Ross wasn't really known for bunkers behind the green, but then again he wasn't against them either, used sparingly. I added it here because I thought it would improve the visuals coming up the 11th hole. What do you think? I agree the back bunker frames the approach to the 11th nicely in your photo (but perhaps not at ground level? Don't know.) It would also guard against a long approach to a back pin which may or may not be a concern with this hole depending on length and direction of wind. Enjoying your updates and thought process with DGC. Looking forward to playing a round!
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