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Scout Cam
Mar 23, 2015 9:28:08 GMT -5
via mobile
Post by MrSourNinja on Mar 23, 2015 9:28:08 GMT -5
Is it set in stone that scout cam will be getting removed for the big boys tours as soon as the camera exploit is removed? I actually still have a few quarrels with this.
1) In real life golf things look much closer and are a lot more visible than things in the virtual space. This is evident while either watching golf on TV or playing the golf club. Everything looks so much smaller, less detailed and further away which really limits playability without scout can imo.
2) I think we should get rid of the exact wind indicator first and see where scores go from there before getting rid of scout can too. If we start increasing firmness along with removing wind indicator and scout cam we could see scores increase too much.
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Post by Pubknight on Mar 23, 2015 9:53:20 GMT -5
As much as I like playing without the scout cam for casual play, for tournament play, I agree that there are some issues.
With firmer conditions coming in, having access to front/middle/back yardages is key, as well as yardages to hazards/carrys/doglegs/end of fairways.
Green width/depth is also important information you would reasonably expect to have available that is currently delivered via scout cam.
Basically the sort of information you would have in any standard course yardage book in tournament play.
Ideally, the Hole Overview would be the best place for this information, but it's just not very functional the way it is now.
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Post by MrSourNinja on Mar 23, 2015 10:32:07 GMT -5
As much as I like playing without the scout cam for casual play, for tournament play, I agree that there are some issues. With firmer conditions coming in, having access to front/middle/back yardages is key, as well as yardages to hazards/carrys/doglegs/end of fairways. Green width/depth is also important information you would reasonably expect to have available that is currently delivered via scout cam. Basically the sort of information you would have in any standard course yardage book in tournament play. Ideally, the Hole Overview would be the best place for this information, but it's just not very functional the way it is now. Completely agree and I think it's best to leave it the way it is now at least until we can get more hole overview. |
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Post by Doyley on Mar 23, 2015 10:33:29 GMT -5
No it's not set in stone. I put it 3rd on the list behind the wind fix and removing wind meter. Pretty sure those first two will be plenty as will the increase in course difficult for most weeks. Rumour floating around that the wind fix will be displayed as a range - not an exact wind - so if that's the case, that may be all that's needed.
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Post by billybudd0623 on Mar 23, 2015 11:48:37 GMT -5
Forgive me for asking, but what is the 'camera exploit'?
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Scout Cam
Mar 23, 2015 11:53:29 GMT -5
via mobile
Post by NCFCRulz on Mar 23, 2015 11:53:29 GMT -5
No it's not set in stone. I put it 3rd on the list behind the wind fix and removing wind meter. Pretty sure those first two will be plenty as will the increase in course difficult for most weeks. Rumour floating around that the wind fix will be displayed as a range - not an exact wind - so if that's the case, that may be all that's needed. have they stated whether this will be fixed for all players at any time in tournaments? I think if they start using 6-12mph as a range obviously you would work off it being 9mph so can be 3 out either way. Reckon that will knock 3-4 shots off per round |
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Post by MrSourNinja on Mar 23, 2015 13:23:17 GMT -5
No it's not set in stone. I put it 3rd on the list behind the wind fix and removing wind meter. Pretty sure those first two will be plenty as will the increase in course difficult for most weeks. Rumour floating around that the wind fix will be displayed as a range - not an exact wind - so if that's the case, that may be all that's needed. have they stated whether this will be fixed for all players at any time in tournaments? I think if they start using 6-12mph as a range obviously you would work off it being 9mph so can be 3 out either way. Reckon that will knock 3-4 shots off per round Honestly I think it might knock more off than that due to 3 MPH moving the ball side to side by about 20ish feet. That makes the putt quite a bit harder. |
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Post by Deleted on Mar 23, 2015 13:30:13 GMT -5
No it's not set in stone. I put it 3rd on the list behind the wind fix and removing wind meter. Pretty sure those first two will be plenty as will the increase in course difficult for most weeks. Rumour floating around that the wind fix will be displayed as a range - not an exact wind - so if that's the case, that may be all that's needed. Doyley, That is unfortunate from my point of view as the Pro Tour difficulty is relying to heavily on the very firm and fast as well as increasing some distance for difficulty. Of course I will likely never get to the Pro Tour Level which is fine with me. I like the increased distance and more difficult routing to increase difficulty and the course should play relatively difficult under most fairway and green conditions. Yes, conditions do increase difficulty but a true tournament or tour should have multiple pin set ups and with those different set ups varying green and fairway conditions as well as changes in lighting. I think removing play aids should come before tricked up playing conditions (Yes that came from me, you are just going to have to separate my course design from my views of TGC playa-ability). Maybe you big boys and girls enjoy bouncing balls around the green to get it to stick but it becomes less like real golf for me that way and can become a chip and pitch fest. If you remove wind and landing camera aids then you will be increasing the difficulty without having to rely on conditions which SHOULD vary on a golf course. All of the, "I need to know exact distances and such under the extreme playing conditions of very firm fairways and fast greens" are a result of the Pro Tour subjecting themselves to unnatural and frankly not very fun golf, at least for myself. And as for, "I can't see as well like on TV, IRL I can see better", that's the whole idea to increase the difficulty of the game. The more you play that way the better you will get at seeing in the virtual world. It's become like a self-fulfilling prophesy where you trick up conditions to make things more difficulty which does not allow for removing aids to increase difficulty. Better if we learn how to design tough courses that would be almost unbearable under extreme conditions than build courses to suit firm and fast and long all the time. It is also unfortunate that the setting for the approach cam cannot be locked to greens only for tours and tournaments as this would be a great and reasonable way to increase some difficulty. Especially once the exploit is removed. The real issue with removing the approach cam completely is it does not allow you to look at the green on approach which setting the approach camera to greens resolves that issue if it was enforceable by the game. Just my 2 cents...so the Pro Tours and tgctours.com is moving away from what I would consider the best direction. Would be nice to see a community pole that asks the question as objectively as possible. What do you think about our tours? 1. I prefer Firm, Fast, Long difficulty all the time. 2. I prefer the course not the conditions to set the core difficulty. 3. I think some aids should be removed instead of Firm, Fast, Long all the time. 4. I'm not sure or don't care. Thanks for listening, -Mike  |
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Post by MrSourNinja on Mar 23, 2015 13:49:44 GMT -5
No it's not set in stone. I put it 3rd on the list behind the wind fix and removing wind meter. Pretty sure those first two will be plenty as will the increase in course difficult for most weeks. Rumour floating around that the wind fix will be displayed as a range - not an exact wind - so if that's the case, that may be all that's needed. Doyley, That is unfortunate from my point of view as the Pro Tour difficulty is relying to heavily on the very firm and fast as well as increasing some distance for difficulty. Of course I will likely never get to the Pro Tour Level which is fine with me. I like the increased distance and more difficult routing to increase difficulty and the course should play relatively difficult under most fairway and green conditions. Yes, conditions do increase difficulty but a true tournament or tour should have multiple pin set ups and with those different set ups varying green and fairway conditions as well as changes in lighting. I think removing play aids should come before tricked up playing conditions (Yes that came from me, you are just going to have to separate my course design from my views of TGC playa-ability). Maybe you big boys enjoy bouncing balls around the green to get it to stick but it becomes less like real golf for me that way and can become a chip and pitch fest. If you remove wind and landing camera aids then you will be increasing the difficulty without having to rely on conditions which SHOULD vary on a golf course. All of the, "I need to know exact distances and such under the extreme playing conditions of very firm fairways and fast greens" are a result of the Pro Tour subjecting themselves to unnatural and frankly not very fun golf, at least for myself. And as for, "I can't see as well like on TV, IRL I can see better", that's the whole idea to increase the difficulty of the game. The more you play that way the better you will get at seeing in the virtual world. It's become like a self-fulfilling prophesy where you trick up conditions to make things more difficulty which does not allow for removing aids to increase difficulty. Better if we learn how to design tough courses that would be almost unbearable under extreme conditions than build courses to suit firm and fast and long all the time. It is also unfortunate that the setting for the approach cam cannot be locked to greens only for tours and tournaments as this would be a great and reasonable way to increase some difficulty. Especially once the exploit is removed. The real issue with removing the approach cam completely is it does not allow you to look at the green on approach which setting the approach camera to greens resolves that issue if it was enforceable by the game. Just my 2 cents...so the Pro Tours and tgctours.com is moving away from what I would consider the best direction. Would be nice to see a community pole that asks the question as objectively as possible. What do you think about our tours? 1. I prefer Firm, Fast, Long difficulty all the time. 2. I prefer the course not the conditions to set the core difficulty. 3. I think some aids should be removed instead of Firm, Fast, Long all the time. 4. I'm not sure or don't care. Thanks for listening, -Mike First of all, with time spent playing your ability to see the virtual world isn't going to improve. I have slightly over 200 hours and still struggle to see down the hole and that isn't going to improve with more play time. The issue (just like TV golf) is the fact that the picture your looking at is on a monitor that doesn't take up 100% of your vision. This limits how much vision you are actually taking advantage of to see the virtual space. Issue 2 with this is the fact that the FOV is way to high in the game if you wanted to emulate the real life visibility. There is no real way to fix this besides lowering FOV (which could be a detriment) or using a VR device to play the game, which is obviously not economical. Secondly I think that if you want to keep the medium/ medium type of conditions for the realism then your going to have to keep the courses the way they are too. If you were to alter the courses so that they are harder on these same firmness/ speed settings you would come into the problem that the courses would be extremely unrealistic in their width/ sloping and ect. This is not anyone's fault but just the fact that the game is easy and the only way to keep the courses real and conditions real would be to really increase the difficulty of the game play. But obviously that isn't going to happen as there are so many negatives for that. So what does it come down to? The way I think we should go about limiting scores is a combination of removing wind help, increasing difficulty of conditions and slight difficulty of courses. But I just cannot see getting rid of the Scout cam being good at all just because the visibility is so limited. |
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Post by lessangster on Mar 23, 2015 13:56:40 GMT -5
With the wind indicator why don't they change its colour for different wind speeds say green up to about 10mph then yellow for 10 to 20mph then above that red, in real golf you can feel the wind so it's easier to pick a club on screen there is no such feedback
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Post by Deleted on Mar 23, 2015 14:07:07 GMT -5
MrSourNinja, I have a different experience. Ever since I started playing most of my rounds without the landing camera I am getting better at picking up visual cues and can literally see better down the course. Lighting has a lot to do with this and I feel we sacrifice a lot for the artistic lighting. Which again creates the self-fulfilling prophesy. Poor lighting means less ability to turn off aids and is something that should be encountered occasionally. Thing is with self-fulfilling prophesies is that most involved cannot see the forest for the trees and do not realize what is happening . We all get used to having aids and to have them taken away can be disconcerting. I agree with your field of view arguments on some points. For myself when I play a game that has difficult spotting in the design I find the more I play it the better I get at spotting or seeing. Sorry that is not the case for you. Maybe if you haven't given it much of a chance you could try playing without the approach camera for longer than frustration sets in and makes you quit. If you have tried to play that way extensively then my apologies. Now if you just do not like playing that way that is another matter. Peace, -Mike  P.S. since we are flashing hours played I'm at 800 plus but most of that is in the designer. I do play a good bit though. |
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Post by MrSourNinja on Mar 23, 2015 14:14:54 GMT -5
MrSourNinja, I have a different experience. Ever since I started playing most of my rounds without the landing camera I am getting better at picking up visual cues and can literally see better down the course. Lighting has a lot to do with this and I feel we sacrifice a lot for the artistic lighting. Which again creates the self-fulfilling prophesy. Poor lighting means less ability to turn off aids and is something that should be encountered occasionally. Thing is with self-fulfilling prophesies is that most involve cannot see the forest for the trees and do not realize what is happening . We all get used to having aids and to have them taken away can be disconcerting. I agree with your field of view arguments on some points. For myself when I play a game that has difficult spotting in the design I find the more I play it the better I get at spotting or seeing. Sorry that is not the case for you. Maybe if you haven't given it much of a chance you could try playing without the approach camera for longer than frustration sets in and makes you quit. If you have tried to play that way extensively then my apologies. Now if you just do not like playing that way that is another matter. Peace, -Mike P.S. since we are flashing hours played I'm at 800 plus but most of that is in the designer. I do play a good bit though. I understand you feel differently and that's cool and all but for me personally I literally cannot see down range nearly as efficiently as I can in real life. To the point where it really is a hindrance and makes the game a lot more frustrating. That's funny too because my depth perception in real life is quite terrible. But, I have played some without scout cam and will continue to do so to see if my opinion changes, I just don't see it changing. |
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Scout Cam
Mar 23, 2015 15:18:26 GMT -5
via mobile
Post by SloanerTW on Mar 23, 2015 15:18:26 GMT -5
If scout cam is ever removed I would like to hire a caddy so he can take notes of every hole on every course we play so I can keep my job in order to compete |
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Post by Deleted on Mar 23, 2015 15:31:32 GMT -5
If scout cam is ever removed I would like to hire a caddy so he can take notes of every hole on every course we play so I can keep my job in order to compete SloanerTW, Anything to slow you down. Remove it. So for you the landing camera scout cam is like a virtual caddy. Sand in your eyes, -Mike     |
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