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Post by PicnicGuy / BobalooNOLA on Jul 19, 2020 17:04:56 GMT -5
It seems to me, that if the vast majority of players birdie a hole, then it's par 'target' should be dropped a stroke.
i.e. a par 4 that has a stroke avg over hundreds of rounds of, say, 3.2, is really just a tough par 3.
Kind of like since everyone on a 55mph highway really went 65, they raised the limit to reflect reality. Obviously, the speed limit isn't a perfect analogy, since there are places where excessive speed is unsafe. You can't really say that about golf strokes, LOL.
Anyway, just this designer's thoughts when I see a spate of -14 under rounds on one of my courses. NOT that it would help me competitively as a player.
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Post by 15eicheltower9 on Jul 19, 2020 18:02:27 GMT -5
Par is just a number.
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Post by lessthanbread on Jul 19, 2020 18:11:44 GMT -5
Fictional courses designed in TGC are meant to reflect real life course in terms of strategy and other architectural principles. However, most fictional courses still stretch the boundary of realism and would be extremely difficult if they existed in real life. The huge difference is the play. TGC golfers far away exceed the abilities of real golfers. To get realistic scores you’d need outrageously tricked up courses that would hurt the respect of real course architecture
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Post by PicnicGuy / BobalooNOLA on Jul 19, 2020 20:18:50 GMT -5
Just to be clear, I'm not minding the occasional low score.
On my last 3 courses, I've been trying to design so "par" is not "torn a new one", so to speak, while still keeping realistic distances, carry requirements, etcetera. I feel very satisfied when I see a wide range of scores under & over par from the ghosts on my XBox. Of course, I realize that's just casual play, but one of my design 'fans' is a TGC Korn Ferry contender, and his scores range from -11 to fighting for a -2. I don't think I've "tricked" them up, but I'd appreciate some feedback if you ever wander onto a Bobaloo Designs course.
When I pull up courses to play that have literally NO 'ghosts' at or above par, because that usually means the designer didn't do enough to make recoveries challenging, or require some thinking on the tee other than "is it a strong crosswind".
Anyway, just my take on it ... it is just a game, and I'm no course design master, but it IS kind of "an art", and the improvisationl musician in me always chafes at rules on form.
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Post by tpetro on Jul 20, 2020 10:30:58 GMT -5
When I pull up courses to play that have literally NO 'ghosts' at or above par, because that usually means the designer didn't do enough to make recoveries challenging, or require some thinking on the tee other than "is it a strong crosswind". This is a bad take. First of all, 54 people just published CC courses, so I wouldn't expect to see many ghosts over par on these courses - aside from Ryan of course. Second, a difficult tee shot to a ribbon fairway requires zero thought. I'll use an example from, well, your course. Not too much "thought" involved: Hit fairway, don't hit trees. But the "solution" to the difficulty discussion isn't narrowness - TGC players can hit every fairway easily: This hole, despite the 25 yard corridor, is an easy birdie. Thought off the tee is generally about how the second shot should be played, not "can I keep the ball on the fairway". Think of a course like Shadowpoint Pines - the fairways are infinitely wide because TGC players will never miss a fairway anyways, but Matt made it so that aiming 80 yards left off the tee and safely hitting the fairway leaves a very difficult approach. To be fair to this course, the hole depicted is a hole where par can be changed - it may still play well as a par 4. However, if you have a 425 yard par 4 that people tend to make birdie on, how does that hole make any sense as a par 3? As irrelevant as par is, the golfer will always play a hole to its par, especially in TGC. Par is irrelevant until you rob the player of any possibility of making birdie, then you've over-fantasized the game.
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Post by ErixonStone on Jul 20, 2020 21:04:55 GMT -5
I just built a 247-yard par 4. The green runs away from the tee and is fronted by a deep bunker. It's nearly impossible to hold the green, and the only apron is along the far right side while all pin locations are on the left - and upper - tier of the shared green. Everyone is trying to make a 3, and some brave folks are shooting for 2.
Because of the hole's design, there's no reasonable expectation that players hit the green in one, so it's a par 4. I don't care if the scoring average is 2.9.
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