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Post by Deleted on Jul 18, 2020 18:45:39 GMT -5
So one of the reasons I finished last in the 2020 CCDC is that I didn't realize that judges played from the back decks (although certainly not the only reason.) I play tested my course to the point of insanity, checking for strategic value, but only from the middle decks with my Pro Clubs. So my back decks were too far back and even with master clubs, a lot of the strategy melted away and it looked like a punitive course (of course my own fault.) So I know I could go and start firing balls and get my answer, but I'm hoping someone may have done this. Has anyone made a club distance matrix for the three level of skill (Beginner, Master and Pro?) One that included elevation changes would be golden, but I'd be happy with flat land from the tee for each club. I suck at Pro clubs - so for me testing my back decks with those clubs may generate more aggravation than answers. But during my design and testing of various decks, a quick check with the matrix against the measuring tool would help me fix my issues with multiple decks and might help my next creation move up into second last for the 2021 CCDC. I'm sure the programmers have such a thing - but I'm hoping I don't have to go make my own.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 18, 2020 19:28:10 GMT -5
So Something like this...but all clubs and levels?
ProClub Carry Fwy Roll(flat) --------------------------- Driver 270 293 2W 243 265 5W 219 238 4I 193 208 5I 184 197 6I 174 185 7I 165 174 8I 154 161 9I 143 149 PW 132 137 GW 119 123 SW 106 109 LW 93 95
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Post by ezzinomilonga on Jul 18, 2020 21:55:44 GMT -5
Look, i had the opposite issue. I play only with Master Clubs, after first months of play only with Pro Clubs..and i never used Beginner Clubs. So i built a course in which every strategy (often too extreme, or pushed too far for inexperience, anyway) was created having in mind Master Clubs and, in a minor way, Pro Clubs, but totally ignoring Beginner Clubs. Then, after i created the Master Clubs tees, i just used the distances carried by every club of different sets to create the other set of tees for Pro and Beginners Clubs, but the truth is that when i playtested the course with those clubs, it just don't worked at all..And when i realized it (and WHY it happens), it was simply too late. All this premise just to say that, even if i understand your request, i wish to show to you that to solve all the problems about how strategy works using different clubs, is absolutely not enough to know (and to consider) the distances carried by every kind of club. The problem is way more subtle. Start considering, for example, that a Master club, having an higher trajectory, offers a roll of the ball way more little than using the same club of Pro (And i suppose there is the more or less same difference between Pro and Beginner clubs). The same thing, of course, it happens talking about wind : Master clubs are influenced by the wind way more than Pro clubs. Furthermore, you should also to take in count how much easier is to suffer some dispersion about direction of the ball using Master Clubs (for both natural difficulty of these Clubs and for the random Fast/Slow swing lot of players can suffer) such that a hole that seems to be tough but still fair enough using Beginner or Pro Clubs, can be easily too much penalizing if not unfair using Master Clubs. Above all this, there is to add that if the strategy on a hole is built mainly on the distance, is really not probable at all that this strategy can survive to the switch of Clubs. I personally believe that to create a course strategically intriguing using every kind of club is one of the most difficult things to do, cause it requires a great knowledge of golf architecture and to work on angles, way more than on distances, if my words here makes some sense
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Post by Deleted on Jul 19, 2020 5:56:51 GMT -5
I personally believe that to create a course strategically intriguing using every kind of club is one of the most difficult things to do, cause it requires a great knowledge of golf architecture and to work on angles, way more than on distances, if my words here makes some sense Yes that all made a ton of sense and clarified a few things that will keep me from heading down a rabbit hole. All good feedback. There must be a basic matrix that the game's programmers use for each club and modifying factor, but you are right that there are so many variables that affect shot distance and placement that it's not practical to use this in considering design elements. I did do some experiments since I made the first post yesterday. I made shots to different surfaces and was surprised to see that club role on greens (flat) is the same as on fairways(flat) if all other things are equal. That surprised me and didn't meet my expectations of the real world. I will continue down the road of using well rounded course design concepts and let the various shot possibilities fall into place for each round.
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Post by ezzinomilonga on Jul 19, 2020 8:27:52 GMT -5
I personally believe that to create a course strategically intriguing using every kind of club is one of the most difficult things to do, cause it requires a great knowledge of golf architecture and to work on angles, way more than on distances, if my words here makes some sense Yes that all made a ton of sense and clarified a few things that will keep me from heading down a rabbit hole. All good feedback. There must be a basic matrix that the game's programmers use for each club and modifying factor, but you are right that there are so many variables that affect shot distance and placement that it's not practical to use this in considering design elements. I did do some experiments since I made the first post yesterday. I made shots to different surfaces and was surprised to see that club role on greens (flat) is the same as on fairways(flat) if all other things are equal. That surprised me and didn't meet my expectations of the real world. I will continue down the road of using well rounded course design concepts and let the various shot possibilities fall into place for each round. You centered what is for me the main point: reality just don't fits with the game the huge majority of us is used to play. This is an old, long debate, that i personally find always really interesting, and of course every designer have the right to "process" all the data he collects, in order to decide what kind of course to create. Me, for example, although i sincerely prefer real courses, i'm trying to elaborate my personal "architecture's plans", looking for what is good and useful to take from real courses and what is good and useful to take from fictional courses, with the final goal to create courses challenging for very good players on Tour (then playing with all aids on). Of course, this kind of courses would be considered unfair IRL (or if played with no aids on, obviously), but i think it would be good for the community to have courses really tough to play on the best flights we have, but with no need to crank up every single time the conditions of play. Of course this is a long shot project, even because i must still understand what will be different in the new game. But, above all, i find very good if every designer should embrace a different philosophy, cause this means we'll have a good amount of choices about the courses to play
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Post by b101 on Jul 19, 2020 9:08:09 GMT -5
Simple bit of advice: don't do that . A) because it's all about to change with the next game and b) because it leads you to design around perfect distances that either make the course play badly (i.e. you either can or you can't) or are completely messed up with wind when that changes. Have in your head that Master driver goes roughly 285 yards and Pro driver goes roughly 275 yards. 2 wood is 253 and Pro maybe 245 (I have no idea about pro clubs). Bottom line is, just be aware that it will play longer with pro clubs and that you need to factor some forgiveness in. But please don't design around one very specific yardage - winds, fast downswings and conditions will all change that and it leads to a fairly arcadey form of design that isn't great in the long run. For that reason, I also wouldn't over-playtest. A lot of playtesting is great when you get started, but the more experienced you get, the less it tends to matter as you have an idea of what works and what doesn't without hitting a ball. Also, FYI, you can playtest with wind by going to Local Match -> My unpublished courses (scroll down a touch) and then go from there.
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Post by ezzinomilonga on Jul 19, 2020 9:08:40 GMT -5
Anyway, if i could give you some advice, i would say to : 1) start to save pics (especially from above, but not only) of every hole you like or you find interesting, real or fictional. 2) before to start to work on the editor, draw the routing of your course on paper. A pencil and a compax can be incredibly helpful to built the course as you imagine it. And is a great fun, even if you shouldn't be exactly an artist (just like me ) 3) starting from the courses you enjoy the most to play, create your own philosophy and try to apply it on every course you create (for example, if to use template holes, if and how many drivable par 4 and 5 to have on your course, total par and order of the holes on scorecard..in short, everything you think can be good for your course) 4) if you have the chance, try to recreate a real course too from an architect you like. I believe it can be incredibly helpful to figure out some nuance not so easy to understand.
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