No Lie Grid, etc for PGA Tour

[wmr5277]

I don't know if it has ever had any traction in previous seasons as this is my 1st season on TGCTours...

I know there is True Sim...and as I do like the no green grid....but True Sim just isn't for me as it would drive me crazy never seeing where I'm hitting it....

Anyways; has there ever been any thought for making the PGA Tour harder?

So I love the no wind speed showing. Hope that never changes...but I was thinking...

-No lie grid on any shot
-No exact # into a flagstick. (I forget which society I played in TGC 2...but it would say 175-180 at flagstick instead of 176. And 50-55 yards instead of 53, etc. etc. Never had an exact # yardage to the pin...I'm assuming that still exists in TGC 2019?)
-Whatever small other things I'm forgetting

Obviously not a big change. But I wonder if I'm the only one who feels this way?

[Deleted]

I'd also lose the putting marker and the aiming circle thing. The problem with range distance is that the distance gap gets to like 10-20 yards. People would lose their mind.

[wmr5277]

Yes. No aiming circle thing would be great. As for the yardage....now that I think of it, I think you're right...

It would say 160-180 yards....

Which wouldnt be a problem as if you just swivel to the side with the joystick...you can guess down to within a yard.

Anything to make the PGA Tour 1 to 2 strokes harder for everyones stroke average would be terrific!

[ezzinomilonga]

For what i have experienced in this years about playing golf games,the best way to make a tour 1-3 strokes harder is to off the aim marker. It's true,in some course it would be a nightmare,but everytime i played with this option i had a lot of fun. And even the simple FIR became a much more valuable stat.

It's hard,of course,but it's absolutely MUCH MORE realistic..and practicing it's quite menageable. Expecially cause this game offers a pretty good map view with distances and elevation changes (something that,for example,in tw2014 was not available,then playing without aim marker was playing just about "feeling" of where the ball could go,at least from the tee).

On another side,to switch off the grid on the greens it's a HUGE game changer and we're no more talking about 1-3 strokes difference,but even 5-6. And in my eyes would be senseless keeping on the aim marker and shut off the grid on greens.

The idea about to play with not the exact distance to the pin it could be a good idea,if the distance range stays about some yard/meter and not a dozen or more.

[AFCTUJacko]

May 4, 2019 5:29:52 GMT -5 @kevdogmillionar said:

I'd also lose the putting marker and the aiming circle thing. The problem with range distance is that the distance gap gets to like 10-20 yards. People would lose their mind.

They'd lose their minds because it's an absurd suggestion.

Have you ever watched a professional golf tournament?

Have you ever seen a caddie say to a player, you have somewhere between 160-180, it's anywhere between a 9 iron and a 7 - just take a guess

No.

I'd be fine with the lie grid and even the scout cam going, but not knowing your number to the flag is just silly. Any half decent amateur has this info within 5 ish yards.

Adding artifical difficulty through settings because the game itself is too easy is totally the wrong way to go.

[wmr5277]

May 4, 2019 7:55:00 GMT -5 AFCTUJacko said:

May 4, 2019 5:29:52 GMT -5 @kevdogmillionar said:

I'd also lose the putting marker and the aiming circle thing. The problem with range distance is that the distance gap gets to like 10-20 yards. People would lose their mind.

They'd lose their minds because it's an absurd suggestion.

Have you ever watched a professional golf tournament?

Have you ever seen a caddie say to a player, you have somewhere between 160-180, it's anywhere between a 9 iron and a 7 - just take a guess

No.

I'd be fine with the lie grid and even the scout cam going, but now knowing your number to the flag is just silly. Any half decent amateur has this info within 5 ish yards.

Adding artifical difficulty through settings because the game itself is too easy is totally the wrong way to go.

What would you do to make it harder then?

And when it says 160-180....if you swivel to the side you can get the correct yardage anyways within 1 yard.

I wouldn't see that being an issue.

[AFCTUJacko]

May 4, 2019 8:41:17 GMT -5 wmr5277 said:

May 4, 2019 7:55:00 GMT -5 AFCTUJacko said:

They'd lose their minds because it's an absurd suggestion.

Have you ever watched a professional golf tournament?

Have you ever seen a caddie say to a player, you have somewhere between 160-180, it's anywhere between a 9 iron and a 7 - just take a guess

No.

I'd be fine with the lie grid and even the scout cam going, but now knowing your number to the flag is just silly. Any half decent amateur has this info within 5 ish yards.

Adding artifical difficulty through settings because the game itself is too easy is totally the wrong way to go.

What would you do to make it harder then?

And when it says 160-180....if you swivel to the side you can get the correct yardage anyways within 1 yard.

I wouldn't see that being an issue.

I reject the idea that it needs to be made harder.

Unless HB give us a different game and it becomes harder across the board.

Why does it matter if the winning score is -60 or -50?

[wmr5277]

I just personally never enjoy shooting -50 in a tournament. I like making some pars in a tournament and sometimes having par being a good score on a hole. Everyone has a different midset tho. I get it.

[ezzinomilonga]

wmr5277 if i understand well,the difficulty set up is the same for pga,euro and web.com? I'm right? If this is true,actually it could be not so wrong to think how to create some kind of crescent level of difficulties between the web.com and the pga tour. Or at least to made only the pga tour a bit harder and more realistic.

But,analizing the possibilities, to shut off the grid on the greens it seems a bit too much. Is something that have a reason to exists just in the tst..and is also what it makes the tst so special.

The yardage less accurate don't make any sense if is more then 2-5 yards,cause today is absolutely true that is the kind of data that every caddie,if not every golfer,knows.

So i think that to play the pga tour with no aim marker could be the best way not just to make everything a bit mor spicy,but it would be a huge step to add some more realism. It not would be the same thing that playing the tst,but it would be a good way to make the pga tour different.

Furthermore,i think that is something that could helps every player to appreciate and to love (or to hate,yeah) a lot of courses that,played with the aim marker,are just losing a lot of appeal.
I think that the aim marker in fact kills the real strategic component. Lot of shots that are quite normal for all of us in some situation,with no aim marker it would be required to have some guts to not quit the idea and then to play in a more safe way.

Fast and simple example...the winner at pebble beach this year ripped the course with a stunning -60. The cut was at -21!!
Let's try out to play pebble beach without aim marker. It's just another kind of beast. I bet that at least a 10-12 strokes would be left,and not cause it would be so difficult to made birdies or eagles..but cause it would be harder to avoid some messy situation.
But above the scores,it would not be beautiful to play at the best level the best courses in the way they are intended to be played? To understand what "a blind tee shot" played in the high wind means? There are a lot of real courses that are considered almost easy and every week are ripped off by our best players,but they would be very different with no the aim marker.

To tell you all the truth,before to read the rules i was absolutely sure that to shut off the aim marker was mandatory in the pga tour. Obviously i can be wrong, but for me this is the best game changer that we have. And considering how we are looking for to give the best experience to the players...well,for me this would be the best way to fully appreciate a great golf course.

And for sure it would be a better way to made a tournament harder that artificially solve the problem playing almost every round in the wind (that's is a funny thing,but in the end the wind is "math",when you understand it. It's always rhe same thing. A course played with no aim marker it would be always different. Always a new challenge.) Am i just me with this feeling?

[wmr5277]

May 4, 2019 13:36:46 GMT -5 ezzinomilonga said:

wmr5277 if i understand well,the difficulty set up is the same for pga,euro and web.com? I'm right? If this is true,actually it could be not so wrong to think how to create some kind of crescent level of difficulties between the web.com and the pga tour. Or at least to made only the pga tour a bit harder and more realistic.

But,analizing the possibilities, to shut off the grid on the greens it seems a bit too much. Is something that have a reason to exists just in the tst..and is also what it makes the tst so special.

The yardage less accurate don't make any sense if is more then 2-5 yards,cause today is absolutely true that is the kind of data that every caddie,if not every golfer,knows.

So i think that to play the pga tour with no aim marker could be the best way not just to make everything a bit mor spicy,but it would be a huge step to add some more realism. It not would be the same thing that playing the tst,but it would be a good way to make the pga tour different.

Furthermore,i think that is something that could helps every player to appreciate and to love (or to hate,yeah) a lot of courses that,played with the aim marker,are just losing a lot of appeal.
I think that the aim marker in fact kills the real strategic component. Lot of shots that are quite normal for all of us in some situation,with no aim marker it would be required to have some guts to not quit the idea and then to play in a more safe way.

Fast and simple example...the winner at pebble beach this year ripped the course with a stunning -60. The cut was at -21!!
Let's try out to play pebble beach without aim marker. It's just another kind of beast. I bet that at least a 10-12 strokes would be left,and not cause it would be so difficult to made birdies or eagles..but cause it would be harder to avoid some messy situation.
But above the scores,it would not be beautiful to play at the best level the best courses in the way they are intended to be played? To understand what "a blind tee shot" played in the high wind means? There are a lot of real courses that are considered almost easy and every week are ripped off by our best players,but they would be very different with no the aim marker.

To tell you all the truth,before to read the rules i was absolutely sure that to shut off the aim marker was mandatory in the pga tour. Obviously i can be wrong, but for me this is the best game changer that we have. And considering how we are looking for to give the best experience to the players...well,for me this would be the best way to fully appreciate a great golf course.

And for sure it would be a better way to made a tournament harder that artificially solve the problem playing almost every round in the wind (that's is a funny thing,but in the end the wind is "math",when you understand it. It's always rhe same thing. A course played with no aim marker it would be always different. Always a new challenge.) Am i just me with this feeling?

I'm not sure if there are any differences in PGA, Euro, Web. I was only talking about PGA.

Good post by you overall. I would be fine with green grid still on. I'm indifferent to that. Either way sounds good to me. I definitely think that no "aim marker" would be a terrific addition in the PGA tho.

Pebble Beach tournament a few months back is a great example. One of those rounds was in very high winds and was still easy partly because of the Aim Marker still being on. A great Pebble Beach rendition by the designer turned into a mundane tournament because 46 of the 120 participants shot -45 or better.

Just think the only way to make the scores worse (outside of playing more difficult courses/different versions of courses with tucked pins) would be to add difficulty settings like to have no lie grid, no aim marker, etc, etc.

All I'm saying is the PGA has 100 or so of the best players who play this game so adapting for everyone wouldn't be difficult. With tougher settings it would make the PGA Tour a bit more enjoyable in my opinion. I have much more fun shooting -25 in (4) rounds then -35+ in (4) rounds.

Just a suggestion as I'm still going to play TGCTours with the way it is now.

[ezzinomilonga]

wmr5277 no doubt that is just to talk about,there's nothing to complain about. It's just that i believe a lot in this site,tour, community. I'm new here,so sometimes i read old posts trying to understand how things were and are. My wish is to see this thing became the best thing that could it be. And to keep the tour the best is possible. Obviously is not a perfect world and it can't ever be,probably..and there are a lot of problems and issues..some aged dispute..some new. It's normal. And obviously is impossible to make everyone satisfied. It's the human nature. We'll find always something to complain about.
But i think it's a good thing when some idea is discussed and analized,with pros and cons fully evaluated.
So said..about the aim marker,honestly for me this change would be not just about the difficulty,but actually about the whole game we love. It's not just a game changer. It would change the way we see every course,every hole. I noticed this while i was still playing tw2014. Looking for some new challenge and trying to make a bit less boring my journey against the AI,i start to play with no aim marker. And in the end after some week to play in this way,i can say that my score was not affected too much (maybe 2-3 strokes per tournament and some % of FIR less),but i noticed a HUGE change in my amusement and in my love for the game.

I mean..to play the hole 17 at st.andrews in this way is simply amazing. And pebble beach..or the muirfield village. And what about Augusta?? I understand that's a game so it's quite normal to see even a holy course ripped off and raped with a -54 with a cut about -16..i understand it,but don't you feel like if you're losing something while you see real players struggling and suffering most of the time,while we can't live on our skin what the blind tee shot in that fu@$#d par 5 means?
And in the end i'm sure that our best players would fully menage the change. We don't lose anytihing. We only have much more fun.
This thing simply give the result to made this game just more addictive. A real drug.
But,obviously,depends on what we are looking for. If we want more realism,i think this could be a needed change. It's not extreme like to shut off the grid on greens,but enough to make the game a bit tougher. But above all,is something that really change how a course appears to our eyes while we playing.

I wish to propose this just cause i see how who works on the tournaments schedule tries to made every round a bit different and challenging,but sometimes this happens at expanse exactly of the realism. Simple example..i play my q-school just this week,at moorland course at the legends. Beautiful.
But the greens speed switches from fast to very fast to medium to fast again. It's ok,but is unreal.
Same story with the wind. Playing everytime with at least medium/high wind (while possibly we're playing in a real course and in the days of the tournament the weather is with wind calm or slow,or maybe high wind in three days on four,who knows it?) is funny,but often not realistic at all (about this,i wish to play at least the real courses with the real conditions..there is a beautiful site named golfweather.com that provides exactly this kind of data..wind speed and direction,sky clear or overcast,% of rain..stuff like this. Weekly projections. Useful stuff, made exactly for this.)

What i means in the end,is that we have some way to made at least the pga (i'd like to do it in every category,but i easily understand that's impossible. Just my secret wish) a bit more realistic..but a lot more funny. And i think that this two simple steps could be perfect. Why don't give it a chance?

[wmr5277]

May 5, 2019 16:29:27 GMT -5 ezzinomilonga said:

wmr5277 no doubt that is just to talk about,there's nothing to complain about. It's just that i believe a lot in this site,tour, community. I'm new here,so sometimes i read old posts trying to understand how things were and are. My wish is to see this thing became the best thing that could it be. And to keep the tour the best is possible. Obviously is not a perfect world and it can't ever be,probably..and there are a lot of problems and issues..some aged dispute..some new. It's normal. And obviously is impossible to make everyone satisfied. It's the human nature. We'll find always something to complain about.
But i think it's a good thing when some idea is discussed and analized,with pros and cons fully evaluated.
So said..about the aim marker,honestly for me this change would be not just about the difficulty,but actually about the whole game we love. It's not just a game changer. It would change the way we see every course,every hole. I noticed this while i was still playing tw2014. Looking for some new challenge and trying to make a bit less boring my journey against the AI,i start to play with no aim marker. And in the end after some week to play in this way,i can say that my score was not affected too much (maybe 2-3 strokes per tournament and some % of FIR less),but i noticed a HUGE change in my amusement and in my love for the game.

I mean..to play the hole 17 at st.andrews in this way is simply amazing. And pebble beach..or the muirfield village. And what about Augusta?? I understand that's a game so it's quite normal to see even a holy course ripped off and raped with a -54 with a cut about -16..i understand it,but don't you feel like if you're losing something while you see real players struggling and suffering most of the time,while we can't live on our skin what the blind tee shot in that fu@$#d par 5 means?
And in the end i'm sure that our best players would fully menage the change. We don't lose anytihing. We only have much more fun.
This thing simply give the result to made this game just more addictive. A real drug.
But,obviously,depends on what we are looking for. If we want more realism,i think this could be a needed change. It's not extreme like to shut off the grid on greens,but enough to make the game a bit tougher. But above all,is something that really change how a course appears to our eyes while we playing.

I wish to propose this just cause i see how who works on the tournaments schedule tries to made every round a bit different and challenging,but sometimes this happens at expanse exactly of the realism. Simple example..i play my q-school just this week,at moorland course at the legends. Beautiful.
But the greens speed switches from fast to very fast to medium to fast again. It's ok,but is unreal.
Same story with the wind. Playing everytime with at least medium/high wind (while possibly we're playing in a real course and in the days of the tournament the weather is with wind calm or slow,or maybe high wind in three days on four,who knows it?) is funny,but often not realistic at all (about this,i wish to play at least the real courses with the real conditions..there is a beautiful site named golfweather.com that provides exactly this kind of data..wind speed and direction,sky clear or overcast,% of rain..stuff like this. Weekly projections. Useful stuff, made exactly for this.)

What i means in the end,is that we have some way to made at least the pga (i'd like to do it in every category,but i easily understand that's impossible. Just my secret wish) a bit more realistic..but a lot more funny. And i think that this two simple steps could be perfect. Why don't give it a chance?

Ultimately the golf course is what dictates the scoring...not the settings.

I feel that 99% of golf courses published are far too easy. And it's not really the golf course itself. It's the fact that the easiest part of this game is driving the ball and the pin locations on every course being too simple makes low scores very attainable. 

So that's why the only way to create more difficulty is to artificially make the game harder unfortunately. But at the same time I can understand that almost everyone is building golf courses for the masses/non great player. I get it.

The average upper echelon of the PGA Tour can shoot -8 or better from 7200 yards while playing like crap.

The minute a golf course is created that is extremely difficult -- it is wrongfully regarded as "unfair" and "tricked up". So what happens is the elite player plays half decent and shoots -5 instead of -12....and the course is considered garbage. So no one builds difficult courses. And it's why you can count the number of fair/very difficult courses on one hand in TGC2019. This is the main issue. 

[ezzinomilonga]

I'm not still a good tester for this thing,cause i actually start in this last days to play this game with the proper controller,but in this week i will made some test,just for my curiosity at worst. I'll play some of the courses used in the pga (and some others,maybe) with and without aim marker in the same conditions. I wish to see what's the difference in my game in terms of strokes,FIR and GIR. I'll report here. Obviously,if better players does this test it would be more useful,but i'm curious so i'll do it anyway.

[ErixonStone]

The effect of this would be to hurt the lower-ranking PGA players while the best players would not be affected very much.

The lie grid wasn't always around and players handled it just fine. It was another differentiator that separated the best from the rest.

The aiming circle just makes things more apparent, but the information you get from it is still attainable without it.

I get that it makes sense to make the game harder for better players, but I don't see these types of changes having the effect you want. I think they would come at the expense of just enjoying the gameplay and competition.

[ezzinomilonga]

I see your point,but as above said,it's not just about to have an harder game,it's to have a game a bit more realistic and,not last,more enjoyable. Just to play the courses the way as they are intended to be played. Cause in the way we are playing,in fact we don't know what a blind shot is. We are losing a lot of emotions that this magic game could bring to us. And with no need to speak about the ridicolous scores at pebble beach,augusta or everywhere,i think about the loss of appeal on every single link course. Or you really are enjoying your time at muirfield or at st aindrews playing eith aim marker? I don't believe it. I repeat it,this idea is about the love for the game,is not about the difficulty. And above all,i'm sure that if i'm good enough to play with no aim marker with no evident damages on my score,every player,with a bit of practice could manage the change. I'm sure.

Furthermore,and this is the only thing that i absolutely disagree and can't understand..why the tour has to protect the less strong players? Is not the first time i heard this kind of statement,that you have to think to the casual players who plays just for passing time.. but i can't understand. If i'm not good enough to reach the pga,(and probably is exactly what will happen),for sure i would never blame the tour to be tougher. If i'm not strong enough or if i can't practice enough,it's my prpblrm,why it could become a problem for all the community? I think we have a lot of categories just to have the best players in the best category. I think that a pga player has to be good enough to menage a game with no aim marker. And i bet that all of they could.
And in the end don't sounds a bit strange that from web.com to the pga we have the same difficulty level? Just my opinion,of course.
And if you are sure that this change would have less benefits that issues,i disagree, but easily understand. No doubt that the tour is already pretty enjoyable the way it is.