acesgalore
Amateur Golfer
Posts: 294
TGCT Name: Chris Hall - Gamer Tag: H4LLY9
Tour: CC-Pro
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Post by acesgalore on Mar 14, 2019 5:24:05 GMT -5
I'm seeing this phrase used a lot to describe overly penal courses.
Can anyone tell me which courses to play that are tricked up? I'd like to see them myself to avoid the same mistakes.
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Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
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Post by Deleted on Mar 14, 2019 5:55:30 GMT -5
ErixonStone had some wise words on this topic previously
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Post by joegolferg on Mar 14, 2019 11:10:15 GMT -5
I'm seeing this phrase used a lot to describe overly penal courses. Can anyone tell me which courses to play that are tricked up? I'd like to see them myself to avoid the same mistakes. Brookledge....
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Post by PithyDoctorG on Mar 14, 2019 11:21:15 GMT -5
I'm seeing this phrase used a lot to describe overly penal courses. Can anyone tell me which courses to play that are tricked up? I'd like to see them myself to avoid the same mistakes. I think it means different things to different people. "Playability" is a real grey area and it's really up to the designer to decide what that means. Personally (and these are just personal rules), I try to minimize the following scenarios: -a perfect/perfect swing to the default aim point of the tee with no wind ends up missing the fairway -from a prime position in the fairway (or off the tee on a par 3), it's impossible to get within 10 feet of a pin position, no matter how perfectly executed the shot is. I'm sure many people think differently, but to me, there should be a non-zero possibility of being rewarded if one plays aggressively and pulls off a challenging shot. -creating a scenario where one has more than 3 ft. uphill on a putt, especially when a pin is placed near a tier. I've probably violated this one plenty of times, but I try and avoid it unless I have a good reason not to. Checking for all of these requires diligent playtesting. I would also say that if somebody says your course is tricked up, respectfully ask them to provide specific examples. Otherwise they're essentially just complaining that your course is difficult or they aren't playing well or both.
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acesgalore
Amateur Golfer
Posts: 294
TGCT Name: Chris Hall - Gamer Tag: H4LLY9
Tour: CC-Pro
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Post by acesgalore on Mar 14, 2019 11:29:05 GMT -5
I haven't heard it regarding my course yet, I'm just new to the community and don't want to piss a load of people off by breaking any cardinal rules.
I'm designing a course at the moment that is supposed to be very challenging. I'm trying to find that fine line between hard and aggravating.
Although I appreciate that when people putt poorly or hit the wrong side of the hole they are likely to lash out at the green designer.
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acesgalore
Amateur Golfer
Posts: 294
TGCT Name: Chris Hall - Gamer Tag: H4LLY9
Tour: CC-Pro
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Post by acesgalore on Mar 14, 2019 11:34:05 GMT -5
I'm seeing this phrase used a lot to describe overly penal courses. Can anyone tell me which courses to play that are tricked up? I'd like to see them myself to avoid the same mistakes. Brookledge.... I couldn't find this one on the server.
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Post by PithyDoctorG on Mar 14, 2019 13:08:25 GMT -5
I couldn't find this one on the server. Not sure if it's been ported. I played it on TGC2. It was a very hard course, a real grind (which I generally don't enjoy since I'm not good), but I don't know if I'd say it was tricked up.
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Post by gamesdecent on Mar 14, 2019 13:19:58 GMT -5
-creating a scenario where one has more than 3 ft. uphill on a putt, especially when a pin is placed near a tier. I've probably violated this one plenty of times *Loads up my Shelter Island ghost balls* Yep, you have.
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Post by coruler2 on Mar 14, 2019 13:29:48 GMT -5
I couldn't find this one on the server. Not sure if it's been ported. I played it on TGC2. It was a very hard course, a real grind (which I generally don't enjoy since I'm not good), but I don't know if I'd say it was tricked up. It has not been ported over
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Post by LKeet6 on Mar 14, 2019 13:38:34 GMT -5
Pithy doctor gave an awesome response there.
There is a really good discussion on this somewhere, and I can only remember one bit right now, but that was that there should be no yellow squares within 8 squares of a pin (centre square and the surrounding 8.)
Conservatory club is a great example of a very difficult but not "tricked" course...
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Post by paulus on Mar 14, 2019 13:49:55 GMT -5
FWIW - a few "tricked up" holes per course is not a bad thing imho. It gets wearing if every hole is like it - but there's no requirement in golf that you must be able to draw it to within 3 feet of the pin every hole. Can't remember which hole but on the real PGA event at Bay Hill last week, there was a hole where it was literally impossible to get within 20feet. Forcing players to have to do a bit of course management is a good thing It's golf!
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Post by PithyDoctorG on Mar 14, 2019 14:38:15 GMT -5
FWIW - a few "tricked up" holes per course is not a bad thing imho. It gets wearing if every hole is like it - but there's no requirement in golf that you must be able to draw it to within 3 feet of the pin every hole. Can't remember which hole but on the real PGA event at Bay Hill last week, there was a hole where it was literally impossible to get within 20feet. Forcing players to have to do a bit of course management is a good thing It's golf! I know what hole you're talking about. It was the Sunday pin on 17. It was impossible to go at as you said, so literally every player aimed for the middle of the green. Lots of two putt pars and very little excitement, if you ask me. When there's no reward, nobody will take the risk!
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Post by csugolfer60 on Mar 14, 2019 15:40:36 GMT -5
I'm seeing this phrase used a lot to describe overly penal courses. Can anyone tell me which courses to play that are tricked up? I'd like to see them myself to avoid the same mistakes. A word used instead of "I didn't like this hole because it was too tough for me". Means nothing at all, and is holding back a lot of good courses from becoming great Tour-worthy setups, IMHO.
The only hard rules we have on the site for setups is that there needs to be 8 squares of green around the hole (which is definitely not something always abided to in real life Tour events, but generally is a good rule here), and a "fuzzy" minimum of 2-2.5 squares of green between the pin and edge of green (which is about realistic as well, although I've played some pins that are less than that in real life based on the features of the green in events).
Although personally I don't set a specific goal of scoring for a tournament, it does help to picture the shots you'll need to hit to make a birdie, par, etc. And also what kind of shot would end up in a hazard. For example, in my WIP for the Major Championship contest, the setup is for the US Open difficulty, which means most of the pins (maybe 14-16 a round), probably won't be physically possible to get a ball to stop within 10 feet on approach. You'll have to make putts to make birdies. There will probably be a few where you'll have to make a 20-30 footer for birdie, and then there are a few you can definitely get close but there may be some significant hazards for failing.
Obviously, golf courses are entirely subjective, as well as course difficulty. The only objective measure of a course difficulty at the end of the day is the scoring, and usually the courses that people say are "tricked up" still offer mid-50s rounds to the leaders, meaning they are birdieing 3 out of 4 holes.
My only advice would be, don't make the "mistake" of NOT tricking up your course.
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acesgalore
Amateur Golfer
Posts: 294
TGCT Name: Chris Hall - Gamer Tag: H4LLY9
Tour: CC-Pro
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Post by acesgalore on Mar 14, 2019 15:54:26 GMT -5
Thanks to all for your input. There's a lot of experience speaking in this thread.
I guess it depends on what kind of test you want to ask of the player. The course I'm designing at the moment probably isn't going to be aimed at the beginner player. Therefore it's likely to ruffle a few feathers along the way. I'll take any complaints as a compliment and that's I've succeeded in my goal.
People will either love or hate this course anyway because it's core concept is so far removed from traditional golf course design and anything I've seen so far in TGC. I'm going to have to accept a lot of differing opinions on the chin I reckon!
That's not to say my next course won't be on the other end of the scale and allow non tour players the chance to score low. It depends on what inspiration I get next I suppose.
I propose a toast to well earned birdies.
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Post by csugolfer60 on Mar 14, 2019 16:05:56 GMT -5
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