Post by reebdoog on Feb 22, 2019 14:16:50 GMT -5
So folks ask for help all the time but a lot of times we don't know how to reply to them. You can get into all kinds of stuff but I figured I'd share a sample of notes I make on a beta for someone. I will put in no names of designer or course so don't ask...but this is an example. Is it right? Wrong? Dunno...but I think it's helpful without getting into to many "how to"s.
What say you?
SAMPLE BELOW!
So I’m not going to get into a bunch of technique stuff here but more just look at the course as a golf course as that’s the most important part. The ways to do things will come with time but the ideas and execution is what’s most important. So I’ll go hole by hole just with some observations.
1. A neat look off the tee. The fact that you hide the water is a little odd but I see that you were trying to make the bunker on the near/right fairway stand out. It works but I’m sure there was a way to accomplish this without making the water totally hidden. A slightly elevated tee would help a little with that. The textures of fairway for pathing is kind of odd but it can work. I would suggest using fairway for tee boxes in that case though as it’s a little jarring visually. The split fairway is a fine idea but this one makes me wonder a little bit. The right fairway is too short for driver using master clubs and back tees. Usually a shorter shot would be easier (which it is here) but would also give an angle advantage of some kind. The way the green sits there is no advantage other than width. However the left fairway is so wide that the benefit is negligible. It’s a straighter approach but takes driver out of the player’s hands so I’m not sold on that. The bunkering does some nice framing but they are a little “bathtub”y in spots and could use a little more sand a little less grass. The large bunker at the end of the left fairway seems pointless. It does nothing visually and is not really in play. Just letting the water end the fairway would have been a better call I think. The green here is WAY huge for a 2nd shot of this length. It’s big enough for 3 or 4 greens. The bunkers around the green are so far removed from the playing surface that they also aren’t a real hazard. I then had a 37 foot putt (on purpose. heh) that broke left to right all of about 5 inches. That means it’s likely a bit flat. The hole looks good from the tee and your planting is nice. I think it could all just be “tighter”
2. This is a lovely shot and a good idea. The green is again too large for this hole. The bunkers are fine but you’d get a better look and play from them if you moved them SLIGHTLY away from the green and lowered the sand more abruptly. In other words let the grass slope down quickly into sand instead of having sand on a steep angle which is REALLY hard to do in real life. I’m looking at the left side mostly with that comment. I dig the aggressive movement on this green...just do it on a smaller surface.
3. The green size here is great...however THIS would be the hole to give a slightly larger green if you felt like it so the “hero” shot from the tee had a little more room. It’s totally fine as is though. Good size. The bunkering here is supposed to be the main visual queue so I’d cut down the trees that are blocking the sand. The sand is again sculpted a bit messily but that will come with time. The drop off at the end of the fairway could be handled a little cleaner and there are a few ways to do that so I’ll just leave it at that. I went for the green and came JUST short dang it. HA! You’ll get a lot of folks to do that. Well done water and walls. Very pretty. Nice hole just needs a little TLC
4. The tee shot needs a little work. I would suggest opening the right side a little and expanding the fairway right towards the front of the big bunker. You’ll get a better drive that way. Also the trees left are really going to kill any short hitter’s chance here. Maybe Leave one tree on the corner but give a pathway for folks to lay back if they want to take three shots. If they don’t clear the corner (which in the wind is a real possibility) they simply have to chunk one up a little ways which is no fun.The framing of the green is very nice here but the green itself is again VERY big for no real reason. If it’s a two shot hole then a larger green can work but this will USUALLY be a pitch or chip onto the surface so it can afford to be quite small.
5. The sculpting on the bunker left is quite nasty. You’ll want to spend some quality time there. Also...don’t feel like you have to make the sand higher. The player can see it’s there. Just let it be natural and don’t force it higher.The one on the right is also a bit much. You can make large drops but give it a little context and slope instead of just a big ditch in the sand. The green and surrounding fairway is WAY too big. No way around this one. It’s just massive. If you want to have a fairway surround too you need to have the green either higher or lower overall.
6. The fairway left needs to either be a runoff below the green or a slope down to the green. It’s too much of just an add on right now. (it has a little slope down but not enough) I’d raise the green surface here quite a bit. The hole layout is ok but it’s just messy around the edges and bland. Spice it up baby!
7. The 2nd bunker left is not needed. Just let the water snug up to the near one. The sculpting on the tees and around them needs some work still. The bunkers from the overhead also look like just scribbles. It’s ok but I’m sure you can make them look more natural rather than circles of waypoints. Another HUGE green with nothing to really break it up.
8. It’s an ok hole...but the trees along the left side of the fairway island don’t do anything for me. Better to open up that side. The scale of the bunker right of the green is too much. AGain you’ve got a lot of real estate without a lot of elevation or interest.
9. The bunkers here are totally different than anything else...why? Seems like just a breakup of style for no real reason. The bunkering on the little island is not great. The one at the end of the fairway simply serves to block the view. The one left could just be low, no need to bump it way up. The little lobe of green on the right is kind of pointless. The bunker left of the green needs sculpting work. The size of the green and hazards near the green are great. Just needs some help
10. Meh. it’s an ok hole. Sculpting could be better and the scale of things near the green still seem a bit large but it’s ok
11. You need to decide what the hazard here is. Is it that driver goes too far for the near fairway? Is it the trees? Is it the sand? Is it the way the 2nd fairway narrows? Right now this hole can’t decide what it wants to be. The bunker behind the green doesn’t really seem to fit. The width of the approach is again very very large and while it does go uphill the sloping is still kind of uninteresting. The hole has potential but it needs some trimming and tightening up. It’s doing too much right now.
12. This kind of hole makes me sad. You’ve done all this work on stuff around the hole and the hole is just a big green. ?? Take some of the stuff from hole 11 and put it here (sand, elevation...tree...something)
13. The fairway seems to be an afterthought here. I mean it’s fine but it could be elevated a bit or have some slope or something. Also the waypoint needs to be moved so the player is aimed in the fairway and not the water. The hole idea is fine but right now the only really interesting part is deciding to go for it or not.
14. THis hole is almost jarring again in it’s difference. The bunker left of the green area (way down the hill) is not needed. Good sculpting could make that area a hazard without just chucking sand down the hill. The bunker long left is also just so far removed from play I’d have to misclub to get back there. In fact all the bunkers near the green are almost entirely out of play unless someone really hangs one out there. Again the hole is fine but needs some TLC
15. The front to back slope of the green is an odd choice considering the tee shot. The hole is fine but the tees can be done without all the texture pulling and such if you takesome time. The bunkers are ok but don’t really do much for the hole the way they sit right now. Elevate the green maybe? That could help. The hole is what it is and that’s fine but could be tightened up a bit.
16. Tee shot is nice. The trees on the right of the corner could be thinned. The slope on the right of the green is way too much. How do you mow that? The bunker right and behind the green could be entirely done away with and wouldn’t change the hole that much… The bunker left of the fairway on the 2nd shot are super flat looking. I like the idea but the sloping from the fairway to the green (including the bunkers) could be done better. It’s not easy but it can be smoother and not as “stepped” I think part of it could be solved just by shrinking the green. Right now it’s a three shot hole most of the time and that green is HUGE for that.
17. This hole is out of nowhere. Everything has been treed in or water and this one is just open with rocks. It looks nice it’s just not a good flow from the previous holes. Maybe mess with the previous holes to get the player to a point where this isn’t so jarring. Another massive green (don’t sweat it, this is NORMAL for newer designers).
18. A good idea here but again the look is just VASTLY different on 17 and 18...like out of nowhere. Just an idea...but making the right fairway partly blind using trees or rocks or something could be even cooler. The slope into the water is lacking. I zoomed to the green and was SHOCKED at its shape/size. The size is good. The shape makes no sense without some REASON for the shape. Right now it’s just a different shape to be different. There’s no hazard or slope or anything dictating the green. There is a little slope and it’s well done but I’d think a little more would be needed to make that shape necessary. The dip in the back is again kind of out of nowhere as it’s not something you’ve done anywhere else. 2 of the bunkers are in play though which is nice.
OVerall… I have nothing to do with approving courses for tour play but I don’t think this one would make it as is. This is a lot of messiness with sculpting that needs to be worked out. You’ve got good holes and some good views but everything needs to be tightened up. By that I mean sizes need to be looked at, distances between play areas and hazards examined, continuity is lacking in spots, bunkers are randomly designed in spots and not in a natural way. One thing I’d say too is not to fall in love with a hole idea so much that you’re not willing to tear it up and change it if it’s not working. A couple of holes look like this was the case.
If you want technique stuff it’s out there but this is more about trying to get the scaling right and make visuals match what you have in your mind. That takes time. Holler if this is too much or not enough. Keep working man! Publish it...you’ll get some plays and some extra eyes on it! Take that and use it on the next one.
What say you?
SAMPLE BELOW!
So I’m not going to get into a bunch of technique stuff here but more just look at the course as a golf course as that’s the most important part. The ways to do things will come with time but the ideas and execution is what’s most important. So I’ll go hole by hole just with some observations.
1. A neat look off the tee. The fact that you hide the water is a little odd but I see that you were trying to make the bunker on the near/right fairway stand out. It works but I’m sure there was a way to accomplish this without making the water totally hidden. A slightly elevated tee would help a little with that. The textures of fairway for pathing is kind of odd but it can work. I would suggest using fairway for tee boxes in that case though as it’s a little jarring visually. The split fairway is a fine idea but this one makes me wonder a little bit. The right fairway is too short for driver using master clubs and back tees. Usually a shorter shot would be easier (which it is here) but would also give an angle advantage of some kind. The way the green sits there is no advantage other than width. However the left fairway is so wide that the benefit is negligible. It’s a straighter approach but takes driver out of the player’s hands so I’m not sold on that. The bunkering does some nice framing but they are a little “bathtub”y in spots and could use a little more sand a little less grass. The large bunker at the end of the left fairway seems pointless. It does nothing visually and is not really in play. Just letting the water end the fairway would have been a better call I think. The green here is WAY huge for a 2nd shot of this length. It’s big enough for 3 or 4 greens. The bunkers around the green are so far removed from the playing surface that they also aren’t a real hazard. I then had a 37 foot putt (on purpose. heh) that broke left to right all of about 5 inches. That means it’s likely a bit flat. The hole looks good from the tee and your planting is nice. I think it could all just be “tighter”
2. This is a lovely shot and a good idea. The green is again too large for this hole. The bunkers are fine but you’d get a better look and play from them if you moved them SLIGHTLY away from the green and lowered the sand more abruptly. In other words let the grass slope down quickly into sand instead of having sand on a steep angle which is REALLY hard to do in real life. I’m looking at the left side mostly with that comment. I dig the aggressive movement on this green...just do it on a smaller surface.
3. The green size here is great...however THIS would be the hole to give a slightly larger green if you felt like it so the “hero” shot from the tee had a little more room. It’s totally fine as is though. Good size. The bunkering here is supposed to be the main visual queue so I’d cut down the trees that are blocking the sand. The sand is again sculpted a bit messily but that will come with time. The drop off at the end of the fairway could be handled a little cleaner and there are a few ways to do that so I’ll just leave it at that. I went for the green and came JUST short dang it. HA! You’ll get a lot of folks to do that. Well done water and walls. Very pretty. Nice hole just needs a little TLC
4. The tee shot needs a little work. I would suggest opening the right side a little and expanding the fairway right towards the front of the big bunker. You’ll get a better drive that way. Also the trees left are really going to kill any short hitter’s chance here. Maybe Leave one tree on the corner but give a pathway for folks to lay back if they want to take three shots. If they don’t clear the corner (which in the wind is a real possibility) they simply have to chunk one up a little ways which is no fun.The framing of the green is very nice here but the green itself is again VERY big for no real reason. If it’s a two shot hole then a larger green can work but this will USUALLY be a pitch or chip onto the surface so it can afford to be quite small.
5. The sculpting on the bunker left is quite nasty. You’ll want to spend some quality time there. Also...don’t feel like you have to make the sand higher. The player can see it’s there. Just let it be natural and don’t force it higher.The one on the right is also a bit much. You can make large drops but give it a little context and slope instead of just a big ditch in the sand. The green and surrounding fairway is WAY too big. No way around this one. It’s just massive. If you want to have a fairway surround too you need to have the green either higher or lower overall.
6. The fairway left needs to either be a runoff below the green or a slope down to the green. It’s too much of just an add on right now. (it has a little slope down but not enough) I’d raise the green surface here quite a bit. The hole layout is ok but it’s just messy around the edges and bland. Spice it up baby!
7. The 2nd bunker left is not needed. Just let the water snug up to the near one. The sculpting on the tees and around them needs some work still. The bunkers from the overhead also look like just scribbles. It’s ok but I’m sure you can make them look more natural rather than circles of waypoints. Another HUGE green with nothing to really break it up.
8. It’s an ok hole...but the trees along the left side of the fairway island don’t do anything for me. Better to open up that side. The scale of the bunker right of the green is too much. AGain you’ve got a lot of real estate without a lot of elevation or interest.
9. The bunkers here are totally different than anything else...why? Seems like just a breakup of style for no real reason. The bunkering on the little island is not great. The one at the end of the fairway simply serves to block the view. The one left could just be low, no need to bump it way up. The little lobe of green on the right is kind of pointless. The bunker left of the green needs sculpting work. The size of the green and hazards near the green are great. Just needs some help
10. Meh. it’s an ok hole. Sculpting could be better and the scale of things near the green still seem a bit large but it’s ok
11. You need to decide what the hazard here is. Is it that driver goes too far for the near fairway? Is it the trees? Is it the sand? Is it the way the 2nd fairway narrows? Right now this hole can’t decide what it wants to be. The bunker behind the green doesn’t really seem to fit. The width of the approach is again very very large and while it does go uphill the sloping is still kind of uninteresting. The hole has potential but it needs some trimming and tightening up. It’s doing too much right now.
12. This kind of hole makes me sad. You’ve done all this work on stuff around the hole and the hole is just a big green. ?? Take some of the stuff from hole 11 and put it here (sand, elevation...tree...something)
13. The fairway seems to be an afterthought here. I mean it’s fine but it could be elevated a bit or have some slope or something. Also the waypoint needs to be moved so the player is aimed in the fairway and not the water. The hole idea is fine but right now the only really interesting part is deciding to go for it or not.
14. THis hole is almost jarring again in it’s difference. The bunker left of the green area (way down the hill) is not needed. Good sculpting could make that area a hazard without just chucking sand down the hill. The bunker long left is also just so far removed from play I’d have to misclub to get back there. In fact all the bunkers near the green are almost entirely out of play unless someone really hangs one out there. Again the hole is fine but needs some TLC
15. The front to back slope of the green is an odd choice considering the tee shot. The hole is fine but the tees can be done without all the texture pulling and such if you takesome time. The bunkers are ok but don’t really do much for the hole the way they sit right now. Elevate the green maybe? That could help. The hole is what it is and that’s fine but could be tightened up a bit.
16. Tee shot is nice. The trees on the right of the corner could be thinned. The slope on the right of the green is way too much. How do you mow that? The bunker right and behind the green could be entirely done away with and wouldn’t change the hole that much… The bunker left of the fairway on the 2nd shot are super flat looking. I like the idea but the sloping from the fairway to the green (including the bunkers) could be done better. It’s not easy but it can be smoother and not as “stepped” I think part of it could be solved just by shrinking the green. Right now it’s a three shot hole most of the time and that green is HUGE for that.
17. This hole is out of nowhere. Everything has been treed in or water and this one is just open with rocks. It looks nice it’s just not a good flow from the previous holes. Maybe mess with the previous holes to get the player to a point where this isn’t so jarring. Another massive green (don’t sweat it, this is NORMAL for newer designers).
18. A good idea here but again the look is just VASTLY different on 17 and 18...like out of nowhere. Just an idea...but making the right fairway partly blind using trees or rocks or something could be even cooler. The slope into the water is lacking. I zoomed to the green and was SHOCKED at its shape/size. The size is good. The shape makes no sense without some REASON for the shape. Right now it’s just a different shape to be different. There’s no hazard or slope or anything dictating the green. There is a little slope and it’s well done but I’d think a little more would be needed to make that shape necessary. The dip in the back is again kind of out of nowhere as it’s not something you’ve done anywhere else. 2 of the bunkers are in play though which is nice.
OVerall… I have nothing to do with approving courses for tour play but I don’t think this one would make it as is. This is a lot of messiness with sculpting that needs to be worked out. You’ve got good holes and some good views but everything needs to be tightened up. By that I mean sizes need to be looked at, distances between play areas and hazards examined, continuity is lacking in spots, bunkers are randomly designed in spots and not in a natural way. One thing I’d say too is not to fall in love with a hole idea so much that you’re not willing to tear it up and change it if it’s not working. A couple of holes look like this was the case.
If you want technique stuff it’s out there but this is more about trying to get the scaling right and make visuals match what you have in your mind. That takes time. Holler if this is too much or not enough. Keep working man! Publish it...you’ll get some plays and some extra eyes on it! Take that and use it on the next one.