CC-Pro Tour Club Set Requirement (Pro Clubs Sets)

[Madtooth]

This is my first year of TGC Tours but on initial play through, just an initial personal opinion which I think was slightly touched upon on What's Going On Episode 1...

Given that there is a club set requirement to use Master Clubs for the PGA, European and Web.com tours, I personally think there should be a minimum requirement to use Pro club sets for the CC-Pro tours. 

I'm in CC-D so just in CC-Pro but there is already a huge disparity in scores and the use of club sets. For me personally I want to get better at using Pro and then Master club sets but there is little incentive for me to do so as I just won't be able to compete with those in CC-A,B,C and D who use Beginner clubs who post much better scores. 

I know there is a requirement to use Master Club sets in CC-A if you want to be promoted to the top tours but I think this addition Pro club set requirement for CC_Pro tours would be the right fit given that the CC-Pro and CC-Am tours are separated anyway. 

Under the current system there isn't much incentive to use Pro club sets at all and in theory are only encouraged to switch to Master club sets when in CC-A (that's even if you wanted to be on the higher tours or would prefer to sit in CC-A posting amazing scores using Beginner clubs)

Don't know what other's thoughts are on this one?

[Celtic Wolf]

I've had a look through the players placed above 50th place in the 4 CC-Pro flights, and it makes for some interesting reading. In CC-A out of those placed above 50th 9 are beginner, 8 are master and 40 are pro. I thought in the highest flight where promotion to the pro tours is available players would want to go for it with master clubs.

In CC-B 32 are master, 17 pro and 4 beginner, in CC-C 25 are master, 27 pro and 3 beginner and CC-D 23 are master, 25 pro and 3 beginner. So there's not much there to conclude that beginners are doing better than other club sets. I don't know what club set shows up if a player changes them during a tournament so that may have an impact on my findings.

The beginner clubs are easier to shoot with but there is a drop in hitting distance, so they will have more problems hitting into a headwind than others. I think if they restrict players to playing with pro or master clubs in CC-Pro it may put the casual golfer off. I do understand why they insist on master clubs for the pro tours as it is the more competitive end of the flights. There are pros and cons for all club sets and it's up to the individual to decide what club set they want to use to achieve their targets in the game.

[Madtooth]

Nov 7, 2018 6:40:43 GMT -5 Celtic Wolf said:

I've had a look through the players placed above 50th place in the 4 CC-Pro flights, and it makes for some interesting reading. In CC-A out of those placed above 50th 9 are beginner, 8 are master and 40 are pro. I thought in the highest flight where promotion to the pro tours is available players would want to go for it with master clubs.

In CC-B 32 are master, 17 pro and 4 beginner, in CC-C 25 are master, 27 pro and 3 beginner and CC-D 23 are master, 25 pro and 3 beginner. So there's not much there to conclude that beginners are doing better than other club sets. I don't know what club set shows up if a player changes them during a tournament so that may have an impact on my findings.

The beginner clubs are easier to shoot with but there is a drop in hitting distance, so they will have more problems hitting into a headwind than others. I think if they restrict players to playing with pro or master clubs in CC-Pro it may put the casual golfer off. I do understand why they insist on master clubs for the pro tours as it is the more competitive end of the flights. There are pros and cons for all club sets and it's up to the individual to decide what club set they want to use to achieve their targets in the game.

You're absolutely right, it's not like users who use Beginner clubs are smashing it out the park in comparison with those who use Pro Sets and Master Sets but just for argument sake, if I finished second in a tournament (which it won't because I'm not that great) but the first place finisher was using Beginner's clubs, I'd be ssa there thinking why am I using Pro clubs? Given that the challenge tours are separated out anyway to CC-Pro and CC-Am, I wouldn't think the minimum requirement of Pro clubs on the CC-Pro tours wouldn't put anyone off, if anything, does it not put off those who aren't posting great leader board scores from using Pro clubs for them to switch to beginner clubs and thereby making CC-Pro tours easier for those competing with those clubs? Thereby less rewarding for those using Pro and Master clubs? 

This is only personal opinion it just sort of makes sense to me if CC tours are already separated into Pro and Am then to introduce the Pro and Beginner club set requirements to make it a more transparent competitive environment and easier to compare achievements in posted scores?

With regards to the leaderboards, I'm not entirely sure how everything is calculated but during Q-School I used Master clubs for the first four rounds, and pro clubs for the second four rounds. On the main "overall" leader board that showed all 8 rounds, it recorded my club use as Master clubs even though I used a combo of both Master and Pro. I would have thought it would show the lower club set use but not sure how this impacts what's going on in the background?

[Celtic Wolf]

I suppose you could flip your point around and say what if you won an event with pro clubs over a player using master clubs. I'd like to think that players use clubs that will be a bit of a challenge to them but not too much to put them off playing. Also if a player drops down a club set it might become too easy and mundane for them to continue playing.

Just so I understand you correctly are you thinking that CC-Pro should be exclusively pro clubs and CC-Am should be exclusively beginner clubs? I think the flights will take a while to settle because there are players playing in flights above or below their level. The way I see it is that you have to be consistent to earn a promotion, it could take 1, 5 or even 15 weeks to move up a flight.

I began playing on the tour just after the start of last season and started in CC-D. At first I struggled to finish in the top half of the leaderboard and was flirting with dropping to CC-E. But after a while I got more consistent and started finishing better and earning promotion marks. I flitted between CC-D and CC-C for a bit before finding my feet in CC-C before winning a tournament in that flight to move up to CC-B. So it may take a while to climb up but it can be done. You may also find that numbers may drop as players either lose interest or don't have time.

This season they're making promotions more difficult so there's more camaraderie and rivalry between players, so I'm going to try and concentrate on that if I find myself stuck in a flight for a while.

[alexandre]

I understood the question.
I have been PGA / EURO / WEB and now CCA.
I realize I can climb again, but very slowly.
The big "nuisance" is that I will probably go up without winning tournaments, since easy clubs dominate.
The approach has been difficult for me, but if some can do it with peace, someday I can too.
I left until the calculation of the wind, clubs, etc.
Now I just want to relax and have fun.

[ErixonStone]

The "easy clubs" dominate CC-A because more skilled players use them, but were prevented from qualifying higher than CC-A. The 451st-best Master club player is trying to compete with the best Pro and Beginner Club players.

It's not just the clubs that give an advantage; it's that those players are better at the game - probably almost as good as the top players.

There isn't any good reason to restrict clubs on Challenge Circuit. The Beginner and Pro sets are closely balanced so that a quality player could take advantage of the distance while negating most of the accuracy and tempo issues.

I get what you're saying, but I don't think there's an adjustment that works for players and admins.

[Madtooth]

Nov 7, 2018 8:02:22 GMT -5 Celtic Wolf said:

I suppose you could flip your point around and say what if you won an event with pro clubs over a player using master clubs. I'd like to think that players use clubs that will be a bit of a challenge to them but not too much to put them off playing. Also if a player drops down a club set it might become too easy and mundane for them to continue playing.

Just so I understand you correctly are you thinking that CC-Pro should be exclusively pro clubs and CC-Am should be exclusively beginner clubs? I think the flights will take a while to settle because there are players playing in flights above or below their level. The way I see it is that you have to be consistent to earn a promotion, it could take 1, 5 or even 15 weeks to move up a flight.

I began playing on the tour just after the start of last season and started in CC-D. At first I struggled to finish in the top half of the leaderboard and was flirting with dropping to CC-E. But after a while I got more consistent and started finishing better and earning promotion marks. I flitted between CC-D and CC-C for a bit before finding my feet in CC-C before winning a tournament in that flight to move up to CC-B. So it may take a while to climb up but it can be done. You may also find that numbers may drop as players either lose interest or don't have time.

This season they're making promotions more difficult so there's more camaraderie and rivalry between players, so I'm going to try and concentrate on that if I find myself stuck in a flight for a while.

I understand your point but if I won a tournament in CC-Pro with Pro Clubs over a player using Master Clubs the player who came second would know they could be promoted to Web.Com and I couldn't because I had used Pro. Does that make sense? I guess that's my point, if the "major" tours are tied to Master Clubs, shouldn't the CC-Pro tours be tied to Pro clubs as a minimum? To clarify, my point isn't about exclusivity to club sets just about the minimum requirements to compete in each tour. So I guess what I'm saying is:

PGA, European and Web.com = Master Clubs
CC-Pro = Pro Clubs as a minimum to appear on leaderboards, Master clubs of course to be allowed too, and you can only be promoted above CC-A if you have used Master Clubs like it is as present
CC-Am = No minimum requirement but a requirement for users in CC-E to use Pro clubs to be promoted to CC-D.

It would eliminate those who are just looking to win the tournaments but not move up tours and compete but would give those casual gamers the option to just sit in the CC-Am leagues with Beginner's clubs and still have camaraderie between CC-E and CC-Z. 

I think there won't be much camaraderie between players if someone is consistently coming top 10 with Master Clubs but top 5 with Beginners clubs. Hopefully that makes some sense?

[Madtooth]

Nov 7, 2018 9:21:45 GMT -5 ErixonStone said:

The "easy clubs" dominate CC-A because more skilled players use them, but were prevented from qualifying higher than CC-A. The 451st-best Master club player is trying to compete with the best Pro and Beginner Club players.

It's not just the clubs that give an advantage; it's that those players are better at the game - probably almost as good as the top players.

There isn't any good reason to restrict clubs on Challenge Circuit. The Beginner and Pro sets are closely balanced so that a quality player could take advantage of the distance while negating most of the accuracy and tempo issues.

I get what you're saying, but I don't think there's an adjustment that works for players and admins.

I see your point but imo I don't think it's fair that the 451st best master club player has to compete with both the best Pro and Beginner club players, that's a lot to ask of someone using Master clubs to stick with those clubs...I think they're much more likely to stick with Master clubs and be camaraderie amongst players in leagues if the club set requirements are slightly altered. This is all just personal opinion and I am coming at this from a newbie perspective but this is what I'm currently feeling. I posted a really average score across all my 4 rounds of -1. Now yes I am new to the game and will become more skilled over time but if I switch to beginner clubs I will post better scores and my margin for error certainly widens and I'll be rewarded for that approach to the game, which I think is just wrong personally. It would be great to post better scores but to be in CC-Pro, I think I should be using Pro as a minimum club set requirement to be in CC-Pro. 

[ErixonStone]

Nov 7, 2018 9:46:23 GMT -5 Madtooth said:

I see your point but imo I don't think it's fair that the 451st best master club player has to compete with both the best Pro and Beginner club players

It isn't. That is why the promotion system in CC-A is modified so that only Master Club users can earn Promotion Marks.

Throughout the rest of CC, the scores achieved by Master Club players and Pro Club players are similar, so you're playing with people of similar ability. At those levels, if you're better with the Beginner Clubs, go ahead and use them.

This is the first season under the new system. Last year, the club balance was skewed towards Tour Clubs (TGC2's version of Master Clubs) so this was a moot discussion. In TGC2019, the balance seems to lean towards the Beginner Clubs unless the course demands the length you can achieve from Pro/Master.

Of course, as the season progresses and we collect more data, we'll have a better idea about whether our perceptions (that Master Clubs are distinctly harder to score with for most people) are accurate.

We are three weeks into the season (if you include Q-School), so it's still a bit early to draw any conclusions.

[alexandre]

I think the formula is ok, but players with master clubs will not win at CCA tournaments. I can bet.
I know that I will rise only by regularity. If 40 use master clubs, I have to be among the 20 to earn a promotion point. After 5 rounds, if all goes well, I'll be on the WEB. But winning will be unlikely.
I find it a bit frustrating because I've already won some WEB / EURO.

Nov 7, 2018 9:21:45 GMT -5 ErixonStone said:

The "easy clubs" dominate CC-A because more skilled players use them, but were prevented from qualifying higher than CC-A. The 451st-best Master club player is trying to compete with the best Pro and Beginner Club players.

It's not just the clubs that give an advantage; it's that those players are better at the game - probably almost as good as the top players.

There isn't any good reason to restrict clubs on Challenge Circuit. The Beginner and Pro sets are closely balanced so that a quality player could take advantage of the distance while negating most of the accuracy and tempo issues.

I get what you're saying, but I don't think there's an adjustment that works for players and admins.

[Doyley]

We're discussing the club restrictions currently - don't see any changes being made in the next 2 weeks as we'll let this system play out. Q-School was pretty eye-opening with regards to some of the people using beginner clubs and the results they were getting.

First promotion event is Nov 26th - if we make any changes it'll likely be around the time of that event.

[Madtooth]

Nov 7, 2018 17:24:42 GMT -5 Doyley said:

We're discussing the club restrictions currently - don't see any changes being made in the next 2 weeks as we'll let this system play out. Q-School was pretty eye-opening with regards to some of the people using beginner clubs and the results they were getting.

First promotion event is Nov 26th - if we make any changes it'll likely be around the time of that event.

Yeah that's fair enough, wouldn't expect any immediate changes to made and it's up to you all whether any changes should be made, I thought I'd just make the suggestion coming at it from my own perspective to see if the majority agree and the data you collect shows this introduction would be a good thing or not. It's just my view that it would be and thought I'd bring that to the forums and community  

[alexandre]

In the current rules, the best placed (CLUB MASTER) in the CCA receives the immediate promotion for the WEB? Or do you have to win the tournament (which will probably be done by a PRO or Benniger)?
receive only one promotion point I think would be little.

[Deleted]

Nov 7, 2018 17:24:42 GMT -5 Doyley said:

We're discussing the club restrictions currently - don't see any changes being made in the next 2 weeks as we'll let this system play out. Q-School was pretty eye-opening with regards to some of the people using beginner clubs and the results they were getting.

First promotion event is Nov 26th - if we make any changes it'll likely be around the time of that event.

[Deleted]

Is there any way to make the master clubs travel further than the pro and beginner clubs ? Like by about 30 yards ? Even more ? That would persuade players to use master clubs . I think the TGC TOURS set up is tremendous , it’s the clubs that seem to be the issue