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Post by rob4590 on Sept 6, 2018 16:36:40 GMT -5
I guess there will be a lot of cross hazards at 320-350 yards going forward then........ And by that I mean water, valleys / hollows with thick low trees that you'll struggle to get out of etc - stuff that basically says - you can hit the normal driver - but you try and overhit one, and you are going to get a SEVERE penalty. The other way is to say to the player - go for it if you can hit that shot perfectly - make a water carry of say 300-310 (is that about right?) - most people will simply hit 3w just short (into a nice wide accomodating fairway) - but if they are brave / foolish enough - let them try and take it on with the deliberate overhit driver. If they DON'T overhit it (ie get P/P) then they will drop into the water..... The only thing about that is when resorting to a steady stream of cross hazards, it becomes redundant. Meaning, when you have them in a few spots in a round it inspires a "that's a really cool hole, looks amazing" mentality. When you overdo it, it inspires a "Oh...this again?" or "I've seen this before" mindset. It's definitely something that can be thrown into a round in a few places, but making it creative enough to pull off for an entire round without being monotonous would be a trick. Good thought, Rob. Certainly a trick that can be added to the arsenal.
Just to follow up - you're only going to need this strategy on a few of the longer 4's and the 5's each course - while we want to 'force' certain strategies (or at least make people think twice about the risky shot) - it's by no means on every hole. And it's only for the top players anyway.....
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Post by Energ1ser on Sept 6, 2018 17:13:25 GMT -5
I'm going to comment from a players perspective as I think I'm a better player than designer.
There are only a few things that will change my mind from deciding to hit a "power" drive. - Water: this is also dependent on fairway width to a degree, if your fairway is 40yds wide I'm still going to risk it. - High lipped bunker: Normal bunkers are so easy to hit out of now. If I'm feeling good about my swing for the round I'm going to bomb one down there even if you litter both sides of fairway with shallow bunkers. - Trees: if there is a cluster of trees close to fairway about 300-350 off tee that I will end up in or unable to get over if I miss the shot. If P/P drive gives me a chance to hit over those trees if I miss fairway I'd side with hitting P/P drive. - Mounding: With rough lies being manageable now, uneven lies are the only other concern that might deter me.
With this said, only a small proportion of players are going to be able to pull off this shot. It's risky and there is every chance you will get a very fast downswing. If I've put the time and effort into my game in order to be able to pull this shot off I feel I should have an advantage over other players who haven't.
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Post by Celtic Wolf on Sept 6, 2018 17:56:03 GMT -5
I'd agree with Patrick's thoughts on it, by splitting the fairway at a certain yardage it would discourage power drives. 3 of my par 5's on Wolf Trail have split fairways and the other is a dogleg shooting over a bunker and down towards water. I only designed them like that to break up the fairway so it's not a boring looking hole. One of the par 5's have bunkers at the split and the other has water. I'm redoing the course for 2019 so I'll see if I can come up with anything else to try and deter it. Pinching the fairway and adding a bit of planting could also be an option.
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Post by PithyDoctorG on Sept 6, 2018 18:07:14 GMT -5
I'm going to comment from a players perspective as I think I'm a better player than designer. There are only a few things that will change my mind from deciding to hit a "power" drive. - Water: this is also dependent on fairway width to a degree, if your fairway is 40yds wide I'm still going to risk it. - High lipped bunker: Normal bunkers are so easy to hit out of now. If I'm feeling good about my swing for the round I'm going to bomb one down there even if you litter both sides of fairway with shallow bunkers. - Trees: if there is a cluster of trees close to fairway about 300-350 off tee that I will end up in or unable to get over if I miss the shot. If P/P drive gives me a chance to hit over those trees if I miss fairway I'd side with hitting P/P drive. - Mounding: With rough lies being manageable now, uneven lies are the only other concern that might deter me. With this said, only a small proportion of players are going to be able to pull off this shot. It's risky and there is every chance you will get a very fast downswing. If I've put the time and effort into my game in order to be able to pull this shot off I feel I should have an advantage over other players who haven't. I definitely try to keep this last point in mind. Going a bit further, I think subtlety is the key: in addition to having the skill to pull off the "power drive," can the player think to put it in the right spot? I find pinching fairways down (or cutting them off entirely) on hole after hole can be pretty unimaginative. The best approach will likely depend on the land that the hole lies on, but one example would be having a cambered fairway with a small flat spot, where a drive that misses the spot gets sent by the slope into an area with a worse angle into the green (this is where the extra roll out on approaches (for now) can help us designers). Since templates seem to be all the rage these days, I guess my thinking is sort of analogous to the Hog's Back template. In short, I try to pose a more interesting problem off the tee than, "How straight can you hit a driver?"
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reebdoog
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Post by reebdoog on Sept 6, 2018 18:11:09 GMT -5
I'm not going to change a whole lot really. I think the ball physics can make this work for the designer if they are smart about it.
* Cross fairways for long shots * Greens with fairly severe edges and runoffs * Fairway bunkers that are more penal/deep faced * Give the long ball a place to land...but make the better angle/shorter approach from the shorter side of the fairway
I don't think it needs to be "tricked up". Designers just need to make the players execute good shots regardless of length. If someone can hit the ball and land it on a coffee table 300 yards away...then good for them. Just make sure it's a coffee table and not a dining room table that you're giving those shots. *shrug*
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mayday_golf83
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Post by mayday_golf83 on Sept 6, 2018 21:45:39 GMT -5
Getting caught up here now that I'm home from work & had another thought. Perhaps not all the time, but similarly to making more par 5s in the 510-550 range, I could see making more par 4s in the 375-400 range. Barring a massive tailwind, the hole won't be drivable, even with the glitch and the advantage for bombing it out there 340-350 shouldn't be that much more than hitting a standard driver, especially if you've got a tough, precise green complex, which would be befitting of a short par 4.
The more I think of it, longer courses, more front-back greens and small greens is actually counter-intuitive and actually would play into the hand for those who can pull off the overdrive as the advantage between 150 and 200 into the green is much greater than the advantage between 50 and 100 yards.
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reebdoog
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Post by reebdoog on Sept 6, 2018 21:50:01 GMT -5
Yes I liked my own post. Deal. Ha!
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Post by Energ1ser on Sept 6, 2018 22:01:24 GMT -5
The difference has been tested and with no winds in the designer the most you can gain is about 15yds. It hasn't been tested as to how much, but you do gain distance(fast) and lose distance(slow) with irons as well which makes approach shots a little harder.
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Post by SkinniePost on Sept 6, 2018 22:10:35 GMT -5
The difference has been tested and with no winds in the designer the most you can gain is about 15yds. It hasn't been tested as to how much, but you do gain distance(fast) and lose distance(slow) with irons as well which makes approach shots a little harder. 14.2 and 298.2 = 5% + 4 yrds. if full loft on driver used and you got over three football fields of carry. Edit: At least it is not 9%... Like the juice they take on in game coins.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Sept 6, 2018 22:18:18 GMT -5
The difference has been tested and with no winds in the designer the most you can gain is about 15yds. It hasn't been tested as to how much, but you do gain distance(fast) and lose distance(slow) with irons as well which makes approach shots a little harder. I'm not sure you can do that test in a vacuum. I know for a fact that I saw geoff hit a driver 338 yds on Buckhead yesterday in an 8mph wind that was slightly back in his face. The camber on that particular fairway was east to west, not south to north. I also saw him drive a bunker on a short par 4 that is exactly 305 yards from the tee into a 12 mph headwind. You can tell me it's only =15 yds max all you want, but the fact of the matter is that I have seen it stream after stream go MUCH further than +15yds in conditions and/or camber that shouldn't have allowed for that to happen.
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Post by Energ1ser on Sept 6, 2018 22:26:34 GMT -5
The difference has been tested and with no winds in the designer the most you can gain is about 15yds. It hasn't been tested as to how much, but you do gain distance(fast) and lose distance(slow) with irons as well which makes approach shots a little harder. I'm not sure you can do that test in a vacuum. I know for a fact that I saw geoff hit a driver 338 yds on Buckhead yesterday in an 8mph wind that was slightly back in his face. The camber on that particular fairway was east to west, not south to north. I also saw him drive a bunker on a short par 4 that is exactly 305 yards from the tee into a 12 mph headwind. You can tell me it's only =15 yds max all you want, but the fact of the matter is that I have seen it stream after stream go MUCH further than +15yds in conditions and/or camber that shouldn't have allowed for that to happen. Something doesn't seem right there. I do know I've hit a 212yd club that flew 253yds with a side wind and no downhill so perhaps there is a bug that is the cause for the extra distance.
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Post by Tenahka on Sept 6, 2018 22:38:01 GMT -5
I just flew a par 4 green. it was 298 off the tee, I had a 4mph headwind. Gave the driver full loft, got a p/f swing and landed the driver 312 and rolled out to 341. (didn't mean to do the power swing thing).
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Post by mcbogga on Sept 7, 2018 1:06:58 GMT -5
Even if I think HB makes a lot of funny decisions, this seems like a pretty good idea for a mechanic.
As usual, looking at real life concepts but juicing them up to match the game’s straight shooting Golf god mechanics should work well.
One thing not mentioned yet is that this concept can be used both ways. On some holes the shot can be blocked away by cross hazards etc. On other holes pulling it off can be made to give an even larger advantage.
As an example - a par 5 around 550yds effective length with a shallowish green and severe green complex including water or other penal hazard where hitting a big drive just right will hit a speed slot and roll out giving a 5I or even a 6I in while taking a conventional route with a standard drive will mean laying up is by far the best play.
It can also be designed to trap players. Put opposite camber in the landing zone for an overdrive and dump it in a bunker or water hazard no matter where it lands...
Nothing wrong with severe doglegs occasionally. Plenty of really good courses have them.
Plenty of fun things designers can do.
Also with this mechanic more severe greens and pins on longer holes become possible. It will also create a larger gap between tournament courses and casual courses or tee sets. But that is the same IRL, at least from the back tees. I can see the building of tournament tees geared towards elite players and back tees geared towards more casual master club players becoming more common instead of having front tees significantly moved up.
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Post by cliffs on Sept 7, 2018 6:39:33 GMT -5
What happens to your design if HB fixes this "over drive" problem?
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Post by B.Smooth13 on Sept 7, 2018 7:15:34 GMT -5
Surprised, I kind of assumed everyone was now aware of the fast/fast advantage. I can't really get the fast backswing, but going p/f is pretty simple, usually gets me an extra 10 or so yards, depending on how wonky my swing line is. Doyley has the f/f pretty dialed, and when we played a skins game a few days ago, it wasn't crazy for him to be as much as 20-25yds in front of a normal drive on a few holes.
From a design standpoint, I would be thinking about the shot-shape that hitting the f/f creates - a sweeping draw. Now, can you just manually fade with the shop shaper to straighten it out? Yes, but it' less accurate, more demanding on swing plane. So forgetting that manual correction to ball flight, I'd be thinking about fairway angles. A fairway that is either curved or doglegged from left-to-right would dissuade me from trying to use the fast boost because of the increased demand on accuracy in judging the right-to-left curved shot and precise landing distance, as well as the potential roll-out which goes through the fairway in the case of a dogleg. I agree on the concern about courses just going to 8k, but I don't really think we'll see that tbh. Similar things were said when tgc2 came out, but other than RTJ I don't think we played a single course over 8k on your last season (could be wrong on that...). I don't see it requiring a ton of drastic changes, but in terms of planning out your holes from the tee and thinking of where a full driver distance will end up, this is a very good point of discussion and something I hadn't really considered in depth yet.
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