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Post by Deleted on Sept 7, 2018 11:22:14 GMT -5
The overlay thing i think is a bit over the top. I don't like that.
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Post by paulus on Sept 7, 2018 11:49:51 GMT -5
I still think charts are OK for those that choose to play by the numbers - wouldn't call them cheating by any stretch.
But yes... the overlays... they are cheating. What can you do tho...
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Post by SloanerTW on Sept 7, 2018 11:57:32 GMT -5
Charts are OK - real life golfers do it. The overlay is an artificial aid tho - not really in the spirit of the competition. No, I disagree. Whatever is done in real life can't be compared to this. It's not the same. Whatever they do can't be control to such certantify like you can here. There's isn't this, I'll click 3 times here and I'll get this exact number. I find it sad, but maybe I just see it differently. I play the game just like irl, with feeling. Otherwise it's boring. I'd rather be good on my own, be inconsistent as hell but using overlays, putt cheat sheets and loft chart ain't my thing. I hate to break it to you but you use charts too. You may not physically write it down but it' in your head. The only time you play by "feel" are your first 20- 30 rounds of golf after that your on auto pilot as well. You start to remember where you lofted that pw to get 129 yards. All a chart does is speed up the process rather than going in blind. |
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Post by cseanny on Sept 7, 2018 12:05:15 GMT -5
In real golf PGA pro's have yardage notes from virtually everywhere on the course in every condition/lie imaginable. Same when on the green, so much that they can tell you from full 360 degrees which way the putt will break. In this game Calculators, excel sheets, and loft charts only expedite the process, i.e., we can execute the shot just as accurately w/out them, however, they speed up the game and provide "quality of life, or ease of play if you will". I can substitute my pinky finger with tip/half tip finer measurements to replicate my loft chart, but again, this would take much longer. The same can be found here by HB developers themselves: streamable.com/s6xdm At the end of the day everyone still has to conceptualize the shot they want to hit, such as how much will the wind affect the shot? Where do I want to land the ball? At what angle will the ball land and then bounce? How much roll out will the shot have? Can I make it over the bunker and still leave myself an uphill putt, etc., etc. Here's the current #1 guy at WGT and his amazing note concepts: streamable.com/uc43yRandom person says, "Anyone using a ruler is a cheater". 2nd person says, "No. No. Using a ruler is fine. Anyone using a calculator is a cheater". 3rd person says, No. No.No. Rulers and Calculators are fine. Anyone using a stop watch is a cheater." 4th person says, "No. No. No. No. Those things are NOT cheats but they are contrary to the spirit of the game and goes against how it's intended to be played." Everyone of these statements are arbitrary. Why? They are not based on fact, but rather, personal opinion based on how YOU feel. As long as you don't break the ToS/Rules it doesn't matter how you play. You wanna play by feel and hit every shot in under 10 seconds? Go for it. You want to use every tool in the book and take 5 minutes per shot? Go for it. At the end of the day the person with the lowest final score is without question the better player on that day. Everyone should play according to their own style and above all else, have fun. Good shooting and cheers |
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Post by Deleted on Sept 7, 2018 12:06:27 GMT -5
No, I disagree. Whatever is done in real life can't be compared to this. It's not the same. Whatever they do can't be control to such certantify like you can here. There's isn't this, I'll click 3 times here and I'll get this exact number. I find it sad, but maybe I just see it differently. I play the game just like irl, with feeling. Otherwise it's boring. I'd rather be good on my own, be inconsistent as hell but using overlays, putt cheat sheets and loft chart ain't my thing. I hate to break it to you but you use charts too. You may not physically write it down but it' in your head. The only time you play by "feel" are your first 20- 30 rounds of golf after that your on auto pilot as well. You start to remember where you lofted that pw to get 129 yards. All a chart does is speed up the process rather than going in blind. And after a while, a chart actually slows you down. You've done it so many times that you don't even need to look. I haven't used my TGC2 chart for 6+ months. |
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Post by Coniglio on Sept 7, 2018 12:23:24 GMT -5
No, I disagree. Whatever is done in real life can't be compared to this. It's not the same. Whatever they do can't be control to such certantify like you can here. There's isn't this, I'll click 3 times here and I'll get this exact number. I find it sad, but maybe I just see it differently. I play the game just like irl, with feeling. Otherwise it's boring. I'd rather be good on my own, be inconsistent as hell but using overlays, putt cheat sheets and loft chart ain't my thing. I hate to break it to you but you use charts too. You may not physically write it down but it' in your head. The only time you play by "feel" are your first 20- 30 rounds of golf after that your on auto pilot as well. You start to remember where you lofted that pw to get 129 yards. All a chart does is speed up the process rather than going in blind. I disagree and it's completely different things. I don't know how many clicks or how far back I go. I don't have an exact idea of what I need to to get an x yardage. I will miss many green cause I quickly adjust my shot. Pros have their books and data but they can't 100% do and adjust how you all do it. I stay as far a way as I can when I play. Don't believe in it and I don't I enjoy it. If you wanna be the best by playing with auto pilot tools, go ahead. Just not my thing. And even if I people playing by feel and not clicks, still have an idea, it's still not the same thing. |
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Post by Coniglio on Sept 7, 2018 12:30:02 GMT -5
In real golf PGA pro's have yardage notes from virtually everywhere on the course in every condition/lie imaginable. Same when on the green, so much that they can tell you from full 360 degrees which way the putt will break. In this game Calculators, excel sheets, and loft charts only expedite the process, i.e., we can execute the shot just as accurately w/out them, however, they speed up the game and provide "quality of life, or ease of play if you will". I can substitute my pinky finger with tip/half tip finer measurements to replicate my loft chart, but again, this would take much longer. The same can be found here by HB developers themselves: streamable.com/s6xdm At the end of the day everyone still has to conceptualize the shot they want to hit, such as how much will the wind affect the shot? Where do I want to land the ball? At what angle will the ball land and then bounce? How much roll out will the shot have? Can I make it over the bunker and still leave myself an uphill putt, etc., etc. Here's the current #1 guy at WGT and his amazing note concepts: streamable.com/uc43yRandom person says, "Anyone using a ruler is a cheater". 2nd person says, "No. No. Using a ruler is fine. Anyone using a calculator is a cheater". 3rd person says, No. No.No. Rulers and Calculators are fine. Anyone using a stop watch is a cheater." 4th person says, "No. No. No. No. Those things are NOT cheats but they are contrary to the spirit of the game and goes against how it's intended to be played." Everyone of these statements are arbitrary. Why? They are not based on fact, but rather, personal opinion based on how YOU feel. As long as you don't break the ToS/Rules it doesn't matter how you play. You wanna play by feel and hit every shot in under 10 seconds? Go for it. You want to use every tool in the book and take 5 minutes per shot? Go for it. At the end of the day the person with the lowest final score is without question the better player on that day. Everyone should play according to their own style and above all else, have fun. Good shooting and cheers They can, but they don't have all of the exact tools to be 100% sure every time that is the shot they are pulling. Hence why they mistakes, go long, short. With all of these tools, you will always get the result unlike in real life. In your analogy, all of those things mentioned , to me are not ok. Doesn't matter what you say, that's your opinion and this is mine. And I highly doubt we will agree. You have your overlays and tools and I'll just enjoy the game as I think is the closest to what you can get irl. |
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Post by cseanny on Sept 7, 2018 12:46:49 GMT -5
Coniglio:  I too, play the game how it is played irl by top PGA professionals. Just to clarify, I can shoot identical scores w/out the use of calculators, notes, loft charts, etc (it just takes longer). The tools in no way, shape or form change the skill needed to picture a shot and then paint the portrait, so to speak. To finish, because this is the most important part of the discussion imo, It has nothing to do with Auto-pilot or "cheating". That's absolute nonsensical an is based on Presupposition, Philosophy, and Rhetoric (not facts). Cheers and good shooting.
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Post by Coniglio on Sept 7, 2018 13:16:47 GMT -5
Coniglio: I too, play the game how it is played irl by top PGA professionals. Nope you don't. But next time I get to caddy for one of them I'd let them know to not forget to move the club 3 clicks further down when their shot goes past the hole (I've worked as a caddy for professionals, not as their main one but for their trainings in Dubai / Germany). Oh, or maybe I will mention that should activate their overlay graphics to be 100% sure the amounts of clicks is right. You can? That's great bud. Happy for you! Nice words there at the end, and even got a whole package of them  |
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Post by cseanny on Sept 7, 2018 14:21:01 GMT -5
Coniglio :  You're laying it on pretty thick now lol. Said with a smile on my face, not contempt btw.
Congratulations! You have just provided a self refuting statement. Unless of course, are you saying YOU have NEVER used the loft bar in your life? Didn't think that one through me thinks o_^.
An appeal to authority, especially when you're picking yourself as the authority is a slippery slope! How so? Because the cold hard facts seem to indicate the contrary, and mind you, we're not talking about some esoteric golf academy; just facts.
What are these facts? Here are a few links, and please keep in mind, these were literally 1st page searches. There are many many many more just like this.
1st link provides Pro's using Programs and Software such as PowerPoint, Word, MicrosoftOffice Picture Manager, etc.
2nd link very clearly shows Images, A.K.A., OVERLAYS being used.
3rd link shows the use of RULERS!
4th link provides more use of images, overlays, charts, and notes!
Full link found here
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So look guys (to everyone reading this), everyone is absolutely entitled to play the game (within the rules) how they see fit but please, please, PLEASE, keep in mind that we all have our own beliefs and preferences on what the spirit of the game is and how we should move forward in regards to actual game play. I'm not bringing negative comments to those I deem a "video game purist" which imo, has absolutely ZERO parallel to real golf.
Again, I'm not going to demean or vilify anyone who holds to that "genre of play" and likewise, it's most definitely more productive if people steered clear of calling people "auto-bots or cheats" just because they disagree with your point of view. Hopefully we're all here to have fun and play the game we LOVE, TGC2019. My entire purpose of this thread was to help any like minded players.
Cheers and good shooting.
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Post by Coniglio on Sept 7, 2018 16:34:13 GMT -5
I'm only arguing that all of those things you are listing are not things the player has any control over it. It's just data and information given to them. It doesn't change the fact that they need to able to go on the course and pull the shot. They can't move their loft 3 clicks and visually confirmed they actually done that and pull the exact distance every single time. Unlike you with the video game and all the visual assistance you are giving yourself. Never called anyone a cheater. All I have done is to say what I don't like and why I don't agree with the way you play and the things you use, there's nothing you could say that would make me accept you using overlay (no everyone has access to it and isn't part of the game), but it's not against the rules so you are not cheating.
Cool videos, and yes, those are things that players do and use. Things we work with but again, has no comparation with you playing the game and seeing all the visual aids they don't really get while executing the shot. I didn't denied they don't get that sort of data, cause they do. They just can't apply the way you do.
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Post by SkinniePost on Sept 7, 2018 17:29:41 GMT -5
The aiming circle moves when you change loft in the course designer. Instead of trying to get p/p... You can place an object every yard or five.
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Post by cseanny on Sept 7, 2018 19:44:08 GMT -5
Coniglio : Those are all fair points and while I don't agree with your point of view, I absolutely see where you're coming from. So thank you. Again, I'm coming from WGT, where some of us top guys (Not all by any means) have put in quite a lot of effort into mappings,excel sheets, "tools", or whatever people prefer to call them, so those are my roots. A lot of time and effort, trial and error, and then in-game application/verification goes into it all. But of course, none of those things mean diddly squat if you don't visualize and execute a skilled golf shot. Anyways, some of my fondest memories of golf games have been in the actual preparation and creation of the items above. It's very rewarding when you hit a good shot and know all your hard work, energy, and dedication paid off. Cheers and good golfing.
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Post by greyosprey on Sept 8, 2018 16:03:01 GMT -5
Personally, I don't think the issue is the charts and overlays as much as its the loft box. Just my personal opinion, but I feel the loft box allows way too much lofting/delofting of clubs.
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Post by nevadaballin on Sept 9, 2018 0:04:48 GMT -5
No, I disagree. Whatever is done in real life can't be compared to this. It's not the same. Whatever they do can't be control to such certantify like you can here. There's isn't this, I'll click 3 times here and I'll get this exact number. I find it sad, but maybe I just see it differently. I play the game just like irl, with feeling. Otherwise it's boring. I'd rather be good on my own, be inconsistent as hell but using overlays, putt cheat sheets and loft chart ain't my thing. I hate to break it to you but you use charts too. You may not physically write it down but it' in your head. The only time you play by "feel" are your first 20- 30 rounds of golf after that your on auto pilot as well. You start to remember where you lofted that pw to get 129 yards. All a chart does is speed up the process rather than going in blind. I was just going to say this (although I do like to tease the physical chart people from time to time, it's always in jest). I don't use "written" charts but I still do the math in my head, my mental charting of the shot. It's a lot quicker for me. I don't need to look back and forth from my screen to get a number. And it isn't difficult, my goodness. If one has graduated elementary school then they can do this in their head quickly. If you can add and subtract small numbers, you're 80% there. The multiplication and division for elevation is easy AF too. The math isn't rocket science. It's 3rd grade science fair. But if someone wants to use written ones, that's their right to do so. They paid for the game to play it any way they wish. Gotta be careful of the "it isn't fair because they don't play like i do" trap. That overlay thing though.... there's a passion for wanting to shoot well in there But at the end of the day, the paper chart, digital chart or mental chart do not swing the club. The user is still responsible for executing the number properly. . |
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I too, play the game how it is played irl by top PGA professionals. Just to clarify, I can shoot identical scores w/out the use of calculators, notes, loft charts, etc (it just takes longer). The tools in no way, shape or form change the skill needed to picture a shot and then paint the portrait, so to speak. 
You're laying it on pretty thick now lol. Said with a smile on my face, not contempt btw. 
