Ross bracket judging and results

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Roseland Hills CC vs Hookenslice

Roseland Hill CC Judge's Comments:

Judge #1

Pros : 
Good lighting
Nice planting overall
City areas are well done with a cool elevated walkway
Some good views from greens to other holes
No drastically overdone design ideas
A few really nice bunkers here and there
Some really good views from the tee

Cons :
Green complexes seem ok from a distance...but as you get closer you realise they are stale and usually lack any real hazards.
Greens don’t fit into the land but instead sit on top of it as something “other”
Most of the bunkers need some extra work
A lot of grunt work applied to holes that needed basic help
Some ideas that seem they were only half implemented
Lazy brushwork throughout


Judge #2

Well I don't know what else to say about roseland other than what was already said.
Roseland: Loved the first look. Some great looks on the par 3. Not a fan of the random power poles in spots, but it's more of a look thing, than a playability thing. Spot on for cc difficulty. Loved the incorporation of the buildings. Tend to agree about the greens needing a bit more difficulty.

Judge #3

bigcat- first this fit the cc level perfectly. had some nice views and planting was nice, had a real feel to it. liked the city, thought it was well done, falls were nice touch, outside of a few bunkers i agree the rest needed help, fairways were sloppy and the greens were boring. didnt care for some of the pins either, but i did enjoy the round. cc players i think will love it.  



Hookenslice Judge's Comments:

Judge #1

Overall Thoughts:
This course makes me happy and sad. Happy in that there are fun ideas here and it’s being done pretty well...but sad in that the course isn’t consistent and there are things that are tried that should not have been. If this track had stuck to simplicity and interesting mounding with the great greens it could have been really nice. But a few times bunkers or mounds or stairs or thing were tried that should have been left alone. I’m ok with single shapes if they fit. The early bunkers fit wonderfully. The simple single shapes placed into the ground in such a way that some might find them overly simple really produced a clean manicured look that worked well. But then we started getting into shapes that weren’t laid into the ground as nicely. I’m fine with a course being fantasy as this one is. It could not work in real life with the nearness of holes. Folks would die or get mad...but for a game? Fun. The small planting areas were neat and enjoyable for the most part. They were used as hazards but also to steer your eyes and they did so nicely. The trees worked too. The sculpting of the surrounding ground was slightly inconsistent in spots but it also worked in that it didn’t detract from the round and wasn’t something I paid a lot of attention to. In other words it was Background...which is exactly what it should be.

Pros:
Lovely contrasting colors
Nice planted hazard areas
Most of the greens were great
The simple clean bunker style works wonderfully in many places
Mounding produced some interesting tee shots

Cons:
Some bunkers just don’t fit and are sculpted in a way that doesn’t fit the style
A few greens towards the end got very boring
Unrealistic hole routing
Stairs...holy cheese weasels the stairs…
Some samey feel to the course
The interesting tee shots are followed up by straightforward approaches most of the time

Judge #2
erik- for me this was a interesting course. this course was much cleaner than the other and did have some cool tee shots but the greens really didnt do anything for me. this too fits the cc criteria. some of the planting was nice.

Judge #3
Hooknslice:
Hole 3 green is interesting idea perched up on the ledge.... might be tad difficult for cc but it is a par 5 - not a fan of rockface behind green
Hole 5 is a good looking par 3.
some of the flower beds make for an interesting look... just not sure if it fits the theme.
14 is first interesting hole on course with fairway split by flowerbed
Difficulty spot on for cc am.

The Verdicts:

This one is hard for me.
Roseland hills is more realistic but it suffers from a lack of finish, bunkers that aren't in play and inconsistent, boring green complexes ... That being said it looks nice if you don't go into an overhead (for the most part) and it will cater nicely to CC players. It also has some "neat ideas" with regard to surrounding area. It's a golf course that could have been nice but the hazard spacing...

Hookenslice is total fantasy. It also suffers from some issues in places. There are some bunkers that simply don't fit and there is a sameness to a number of holes. However playing the course for what it is makes it quite interesting. It would also fit the CC player nicely. The greens are better from a putting standpoint but it suffers from the same issue roseland had in that the greens aren't PART of the ground as much as they are placed into or onto it. The simple bunker style that DOES work might be a turnoff to some folks...but I like the idea. It's simply not done as well as it could be.

I'll try to do it this way...
Hole design - Tie
Planting - Roseland
Cleanliness - Hookenslice
Fun - hookenslice by a nose
Technical aspects - hookenslice
Realism - Roseland

I don't know...but I'm going to surprise myself and go with Hookenslice. LET THERE BE CONTROVERSY !

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i enjoyed my round to a certain point, but if i had to pick which course i'd rather play the edge will go to roseland... just felt more real to me.

Griff's Final Thoughts...

Damn...this one was crazy for me to judge because the courses are just soooo different. Roseland feels more real. Hookenslice is more clean. Roseland uses some eye candy along the way to keep a player's eyes moving, Eric has some clever planting here and there that is just really well done. Wayne has some finishing issues in some areas, Eric has a super clean course on the edges. Eric overcooked some of the contours and sloping around his course, Wayne presents a course that has a superior feel in a "real" course. As judges we could go back and forth with these 2 course for another week and still not have an easy answer as to who goes forward. Both designers had an idea of what they wanted to do and did a good job of bringing it to life, but only one is advancing...

And the winner is...

Roseland Hills CC

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Pauseburgh Metro Links vs Burrowing Owl Golf Club

Pauseburgh Metro Links Judge's Comments

Judge #1
Pausebirgh Metro -
Defaults to 6 iron on 7th tee... course hits the links feel
Hit and miss about the buildings... it is a cool look, but feels overdone in parts.
Get the idea of the one giant teebox but feel it's a bit lacking. could be that some tee boxes are split and in a line and others are a giant line.
Green on 10 feels a bit forced on the rise.
Undulations on 11 also feel a bit forced.
green on 14 is unnaturally undulated?
The short par 3 was a nice surprise.. but feel the green was easy and large?

Judge #2
Overall thoughts - This course has some holes that are fantastic. It has others that kind of fall flat. There isn’t the consistency that there needs to be. The city is cool...but I’m not sure that it adds anything. It may actually distract a bit more than it should. The finishing holes play great. The greens are really fun. There are just some things that keep the course from being great. It’ll be a tour stop and it will be fun to play thogh.

Pros:
Fun greens with good sloping
Some good hazard placements near the greens
Use of long smooth elevation changes is really good.
Textures are good

Cons:
Some bunkers that don’t seem to fit either with size or placement.
Green surrounds are just huge. Size would be ok if they had a little more character in places.
City...meh
Lighting could use some help

Judge #3
pauseburgh has some good ideas. like the greens but some of the slopes i think gotta away from him. buildings are cool but overdone, good solid elevation which i like. textures were good but lighting was a little off , and a nice closing hole to end the round .

Burrowing Owl Golf Club

Judge #1
Burrowing Owl
Opening tee shot looks awesome.
love the waterfall on 4
like the idea of the 8th hole, but the lighting misses on it.
Don't like the 10th hole either with the lighting.
Loved the 16th tee shot
not a fan of the 18th hole.. liked the idea of the desert in the fairway, but no real option either side... also might have looked better as a downhill tee shot?

Judge #2
Overall Thoughts - In my hole by hole breakdown I got a little picky and really spoke more to hole design than to the actual quality on the holes as they were published. Probably more info than was needed. The course is lovely and incorporates some very nice optical illusions and visual directional cues for the player. There are some bunkering inconsistencies and some bunkers that seemed more artificial than others in that their appearance on a real life course would be somewhat odd. The greens were huge which made some of the hazards irrelevant. The general spacing of the hazards to green or fairway was good. It’s a course that is enjoyable to play though a couple of holes are forgotten as they blend into the holes before a little too much.

Pros:
Outstanding visuals, especially from the tee
Planting is lush but natural and neither becomes the focal point nor a distraction from the playable areas of each hole
Good use of elevation and lighting to present illusions of danger
Good use of theme and style

Cons:
Greens measured by acre rather than yard
Some greens felt placed onto the landscape instead of part of it
Bunkering inconsistencies
No pathing of any sort on some holes to reach the tee or fairway
A few Samey feeling places
Course ends with some nice holes but not really with any PUNCH.

Judge #3
burrowing owl is wonderfully planted and much cleaner than its counterpart with some nice views off the tee. the greens play well and will fit the cc level just fine. good mixture of elevation too. there were a few things that were hit or miss with me like no paths of any kind going from hole to hole and some of the bunkers. the 18th, although looked good, didn't like the choked landing area, but again good looking finishing hole for me

The Verdicts

Burrowing owl is a really lovely track with a lot of technical polish all over. There are some design issues and some inconsistencies where I think Andre just got bored. Some strange bunker shapes too where again I think something was being tried...but didn't really work well. Greens are huge but things play ok. Hoping other pins are tucked a bit more than 1. It's a course that will get a lot of plays and really is a good course that misses the mark of being a great one.

Pauseburgh makes me happy and sad at the same time. There are some really good ideas and some really good greens...but there are just as many wonky ideas and crappy technical bits here and there. Things seem to be scaled up too much in spots and not enough in others. a few holes that will carry this course into a lot of favorites lists. A lot of designers should look at it and could learn a lot about greens, hazard placements near greens, angles... it's a good "design" but it's not as well "designed" if that makes ANY SENSE at all.

Griff's Final Thoughts...

This was a battle of an up and comer against one of the titans of the design community. This one is not as clear cut as most people thought it would be before courses were published.

BSmooth showed us a lot in this one. I don't find it to be a derogatory comment in saying that he has jumped by leaps and bounds since his entry in last year's Invicta. Pauseburgh has some very good holes, a very nice flow, and is generally clean in its design. As well as the cityscape is done, it is sometimes a distraction to what's actually happening on the course. All in all this is a very fine course that will get a spot on tour in the coming season. 

Andre did what Andre does...which is dazzle you with views and immediately immerses you in your round with aesthetics. I've often said that he and Adam Benjamin are 1 and 1a in planting and ambiance. I did, however, find more issues with this one than past Canuck courses...some a personal thing, some legit. I wasn't a fan of the routing. I feel like all of the holes are running the same direction so he could take advantage of fantastic lighting on each and every hole. While there's nothing wrong with that in principle, it's not fun to play when there's a strong wind in your face on every hole...or at least it felt like it. The 18th felt a bit out of place, and it got away from the feel of the course in terms of playabilty as well. Now, before I get the "you're knitpicking to an extreme here, Griff" comments, that's what a contest is all about...and sometimes Andre needs to be humbled (builds character).  

Anyways...both are very fine courses put forth here, and both did their names proud with those efforts. However, only one moves along...

And the winner is...

Burrowing Owl Golf Club

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Sand Harbor Golf Club vs El Dorado Hills G & CC

Judge #1

El Dorado is a solid course. Some of the cuts of rough look a bit weird, and some of the bunkers are also a bit funky, but it's pleasing to the eye, plays well, and is generally well done.

Sand Harbor has one of the better looking par 3's in the game (15th?), but just doesn't compare to el dorado here. Some great hole ideas, but seems to miss in execution in spots. Also probably misses the mark for CC difficulty based on some narrow fairways and some hard pin positions.

Judge #2
sand harbor vs el dorado

eldorado has some nice views, fits cc, but planting to me felt off. seemed like there was one of everything. bunkers were ok... needed more sculpting and some strange shaping. plays well,  brushes were ok, solid effort.

sand harbor has a few nice holes, but execution was off on most holes. tough pins and fairways might push this over the edge of cc.

not close for me here... its el dorado for me

Griff's Final Thoughts:

I want to be very careful how I word this as i don't enjoy making a fellow designer feel bad or unappreciated for the time and effort that goes into a course (a contest course at that). I've played around with different ways to try and keep some intrigue in this one, but I just don't see how. This was a classic case of a designer with tons of experience against a newer designer that had some great ideas and not enough experience to make it sparkle. MGWEST...please, please, please keep working in the designer and keep entering these contests. You have some fantastic ideas and an eye for this...you just need time in the designer to figure out how to "polish" a course. Please don't take this as an indictment on your course at all..as stated, you have some great ideas. It's just really difficult in contests such as this format to be trying to feel your way through some things as a newer designer and have a first round against somebody like DDawg that just isn't going to make any technical mistakes. He can be beaten, but he is never ever going to beat himself. With a bit more time and polish this would have been a very close, interesting matchup, but in the end DDawg just got ya from the get go with superior technical ability. I seriously hope you enjoyed the process and getting your feet wet, and definitely encourage you to catch some of the design streams, ask questions, and look at courses through the eyes of a designer as much as you do as a player. Like I said...you have an eye for this, now you just need to refine it, brother.

El Dorado advances

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Brookledge Golf Club vs TBD

Since Dario defeats bye in a landslide, I will have his course comments in the next matchup.

[B.Smooth13]

The instant the drawing was done and I saw my name beside Crazycanuck1985 , I knew I had little/no chance of making it beyond the 1st round. That didn't have any impact on my effort/enthusiasm/underdog hope, nor the vision I had for the build, and I'm really proud of the final product. Could it have been better? Obviously, don't think any designer would ever say a course they've made couldn't be. Point is, at the end of the day, I'm very pleased with Pauseburgh - and that's a level of personal satisfaction for what I've made that I didn't quite understand the last time around.

Most importantly for me, I'm really...really happy that some of those who have played thus far have enjoyed their rounds at the course. That's a very rewarding outcome of my effort to see, so thank you guys for the plays.

The unusual city-side setting was a gamble I still personally find some value in (however strange), despite the fact that it might not have been as beloved by others as I had hoped - which IMO speaks to my quirky ideas, and is in no way intended as a slight to the judges (think you guys probably know what you're talking about) nor anyone else who may not have loved the general environment/setting as much as I had intended. Basically, the city idea (which I began building 2 days after the game was released to see if I could make it look quasi-realistic) is something I thought was cool and wanted to try . That bit is a "ME" thing that I just had to give a go and see what happened...and wouldn't go back and change if I had the chance to do so.

Want to just say to @griff that I really appreciate all that you do for the design side of the community, with this contest, and in general - not to mention your advisement to me personally. I only fully committed to learning design because of your contest last year, and without that I can't say I would have ever 100% been pushed to start figuring out how to do everything involved in building a course. I hope to be back for the Invicta (assuming it's still happening) and have a better showing than I had last time around...which was "meh" at best (if only I knew then what I do now).

And if the end result of this defeat is that I can weasel the course onto a Tour somewhere, then my #1 goal in learning design may be realized, and I can't ask for more than that.

Well deserved congratulations to the crazy man to my north, hopefully I provided a more challenging competition than TBD . Thanks to all involved, to those who played, and best of luck to all who advanced - especially my Ross bracket guys. See yall next time

[mgwest24]

Thanks judges for taking the time to play my course and thanks @griff  for setting up the contest, I appreciate the opportunity to get great feedback from the great designers on here. Don't worry about hurting my feelings, it's only a video game after all  I know I have a LOT of work to do if I want to get to the next level. Congrats and good luck to those moving on to the next round, it's been fun playing and studying all of your courses.