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Post by Griz891 on Apr 15, 2017 23:56:50 GMT -5
Great job guys. We drove away one of our best designers. And honestly, I don't blame him. Us designers work so hard to put out good courses just to hear people say everything wrong with them. That's not how it used to be. It used to be that people stated everything they liked about a course and added in just a pinch of criticism. But now people have gotten so fixed on being good at this game that if you don't make it to where people shoot -18 every time they play, then you're in for people hating on your course. It really makes you think, what's the point? Why should I put in a hundred+ hours to get people to say how bad it is? I've been a lucky one. There was really only one time where someone went over the top on one of my courses. However, there's people like Scarpacci, Canuck, Arctic Fury, Scampi, Griff, Sam, Taste, etc. etc. etc. that make one tiny mistake and get busted for it. Kind of ridiculous that they're held to a higher standard just because they're better. But whatever. Really hope you change your mind Antonio, but I really can't blame you for leaving. This is truly getting to be sad and that's why I don't publish courses anymore. I still design for myself just because it's a fun hobby that I've really enjoyed over the past 10 years or so, but I feel the same as Antonio......just not worth the hassle. Multi-pinning these courses is no picnic either mainly because you never know what's gonna happen during the upload process. And I'm sure when designers are multi-pinning courses for the tour that it's always in the back of your mind "If I put a pin there players are really going to b%& about it" or "Dam, if i put a pin there, players are going to eat this course alive". Designing and multi-pinning courses now days is a big crapshoot. Right now I've got 2 courses I've been working on for about 3 months and I'm enjoying the hell out of designing them. They may get published or they may not. I guess you gotta ask yourself sometimes, is this course designing to be made public really worth the belittling that you have to deal with constantly? It sure doesn't seem like it anymore!!!
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Post by Giraffe72 on Apr 16, 2017 3:59:31 GMT -5
Well I wasn't expecting this when I popped over to see what nice new courses are about! I'm guessing TGC2 can't come quick enough for some. If you put anything in the public domain you have to be able to take criticism, but you know that already. There are one or two about who seem to like to b%& and moan and are not very constructive, but if you look about this forum I think most of the feedback is still very positive. Would be a great shame if we lost good designers because of the noisy few. I still appreciate your work and enjoy playing the game and I know I'm by no means the only one! A couple of other things: 1. NOBODY liked Horned Viper very much, but there are ways of saying it. 2. Antonio, most of the feedback your course is getting this week in the Euro Tour is actually very good. I'm looking forward to getting stuck in later tonight. 3. I avoided last week's Euro course because I just didn't enjoy playing it, every slope seemed to take the ball away from the hole, and I lost count of the amount of uphill putts I had with a downslope immediately after the hole - too frustrating for me but again there are ways of saying it, don't think I went over the top? 4.
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Post by Giraffe72 on Apr 16, 2017 4:28:05 GMT -5
God that video is so cringe worthy 80's!
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Post by Dave on Apr 16, 2017 6:59:34 GMT -5
Right, this has all been blown massively out of hand.
I will openly admit that I have, on occasion, criticised a course in the heat of a moment after a bad round, and I need to learn to bite my tongue at least til I've calmed down.
That said, I've also given credit for a lot of courses, and I haven't played that many, I am a golfer and I know what real courses are like and that's what I base my opinions on. Sometimes I think I need to realise that if TGC courses were like real courses, everyone would be shooting 18 under on every round, so greens need to be more firm and more extreme than real courses.
This whole episode has come about from a heat of a moment, I've apologised, Antonio has apologised, as far as I'm concerned that's the end of it. People need to realise that when they publicise something it's there to be shot at and they need to have broad shoulders to handle all feedback, not just positive.
Antonio, i'll have a play on the rest of your courses and see what they are like, I did enjoy Paragon Park, its about strategic positioning of drives and approach shots rather than hit and hope, it is frustrating when I miss 4 or 5 foot putts because of the break but its entirely up to the golfer to leave a straight putt, especially since the better players make it look so easy, and the pins by and large are very accessible.
Hopefully this won't put you off creating more courses as the database is only as vast as it is thanks to the efforts of the community.
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Post by jacobkessler on Apr 16, 2017 8:11:44 GMT -5
I owe Dave an apology. Yesterday I had a bad day, so I probably should've stayed away from the forums. I blew it way out of proportion, and I'm sorry for that.
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Post by Dave on Apr 16, 2017 8:14:31 GMT -5
Don't worry about it, we're all big boys and can play nicely together.
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Post by Dave on Apr 17, 2017 6:34:43 GMT -5
The point of my post was to illustrate how useless non-constructive criticism is. It's just criticizing something for the sake of being hurtful. It's become the culture around here and I really wish it would stop. I'm sorry I chose your course to try and prove this point but you were the latest offender I came across since I took a long break from submitting courses for this very reason. I don't consider myself a great designer. I think I'm very good at using the course designer software because I've spent thousands of hours using it. I'm very open to constructive feedback because I'm constantly trying to get better at creating fair but challenging courses that you guys can enjoy on tour. Instead, all I read are insults and complaints. I try to avoid them, but my desire to improve inevitably takes over and I read everything I can about my courses. I try to block out the nonconstructive and hurtful comments but lately it seems that's all there is (quite possibly not, but it's all I see). I'm done submitting courses to this site. There's just nothing in it for me anymore. Unless the culture changes soon you'll keep pushing out talented people that spend countless hours creating content that keeps this game fresh because you all think it's "funny" or "within your rights" to be a jerk. Gordon Ramsey can get away with being a complete ass because he can cook circles around everybody he critiques. If he says it's sh%$, then it's sh%$. If he couldn't cook, he'd just be ass and nobody would like him. I often look at the courses of the harshest critics on here to see how they do it. Some can't even be bothered to attempt creating a course (I assume because it's hard and they prefer things to be easy or done for them), the rest create mediocre courses full of the same flaws they complain about. Like I said earlier...put up or shut up. Again, sorry I chose you and your course to vent my frustrations with the culture of the community. I should have just stayed away from the forum. I just wish people would realize that designers are trying their best to create great courses for these tours. It's really hard. Really, really hard and time consuming. The reward of having the top players compete on something you created used to be enough, but not anymore (to me at least). I don't even feel like people enjoy playing anymore. Just going through the motions. I agree with your last point Dave, so that's all from me. Just wanted to explain where I was coming from.
So now we've all shook hands, did you actually play the course?
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