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Post by smurfblade88 on Jan 18, 2016 11:39:27 GMT -5
For me the only thing tat shud cause variance in a skill based video game is skill itself....that shud be the determining factor of who wins.
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Post by boomboom on Jan 18, 2016 11:41:10 GMT -5
But, HBS is not about to change or fix squat How much squirt have you noticed recently ;-) True dat, I stand corrected. Can I make more suggestions, I have tons. What you have built here is IMHO the greatest golf game ever, does not mean it can't get better, the bar after all was not very high. TGCT is a big part of that enjoyment though, I hope you see what I'm saying there. I will make more suggestions anyways: 1. The game is very precise, that's a good thing. It rewards good shots very well as we can see from all the really low scoring of late. You need now look at punishing the bad shots more. I shanked a beauty yesterday, so deep in the forest I seen bigfoot. I hit barely more than 50% fairways so I think you and designers are getting the big clubs pretty good. There just seems to be very little in between. Hmm, I'm not being clear. Ok without using the shot shaper I would like to see even more turn for a miss axis hit with all the clubs. Maybe I like to try and miss it on purpose, maybe not, but in any event the ball should have more turn the more you miss. A little more than now for sure. Ok so it will drive my hit fairways down even more, I don't care, it will give me something to work on. Little misses little turns, big misses, big turn with all in between. 2. Lets lose the draw and fade shot shaper, altogether preferable but to keep your attention, lets limit that a lot. It's used to combat the wind so precisely that you may as well not have wind. It would be nice if the draw and fade is achieved more from my first suggestion than artificially through the shot shaper. 3. only if you do 1 and 2. Wind, reduce the effect, you don't do 1 and 2, double the effect. Ok that was a joke, don't do that. You don't need the wind effect as much anymore if you do what I suggest in 1 and 2. If you do my suggestion in 1 and 2 courses with trees will be almost impossible with the current wind for many players. Obviously I'm not looking to ruin a bunch of courses. So these need be considered together. Its pretty easy to hit straight, keep that, I'm just really suggesting making it easier to hit crooked as well. 4. You are going to hate this, putting is easier if you hit the putt hard. To be clear, I'm saying generally it's true in RL as well the harder you hit the putt the less break you need account for, you have this nailed well line wise. Where you have missed the mark IMHO, the hole is way more forgiving the harder you hit the putt, granted only to a point. I have not figured out the precision precisely to the foot, but the hole is clearly really forgiving if you hit 4 feet by the hole speed. 18 inches by the hole or less you need be dead center or it lips out. Typically in RL the closer to hole speed you are the bigger the hole is, but the break is more, you have the break fine, but the hole here is bigger the faster you hit the putt. It need be reversed. It should be If I choose 4 feet by the hole speed, I better be dead center, if I choose hole speed, I better get the line right but I will have access to in the cup from the sides making the hole bigger. 5. Shot shaper, I'm dialing that puppy down to about 4 or less feet, better players are likely doing even better. The obvious thing is the lofted up 3 iron needs to go, but maybe if you do my #1 that can stay, but currently dropping and stopping with that club is pretty easy, so is dialing it in. TBH, I'm not sure what the answer is here with this one. If its not precise it's random, I don't like random, but I'm very precise. An earlier update had the thing flying up and down, you patched it very quickly, but maybe it was not in need of a patch. 6. I'm not a fan of not having the information, it's not real, I am a fan of precision, I am a fan of making it harder to hit that precision but it still be available and possible. Anyway, just a few thoughts from a truly addicted friend.
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Post by Brighttail on Jan 18, 2016 12:28:22 GMT -5
Ok, I thought I'd address a few of these points as people are getting a little carried away here and jumping to conclusions that have no basis in reality. First off - not seeing the exact shot on different machines and in replays The game does not record the shots, that would be a huge amount of data to swap up and down to the cloud. What we do is store the Club Head Speed, Club Head Straightness, Wind Speed and Direction, etc. When you view a shot in a replay, or another players shot the game 1) generates the course on your machine 2) places the ball at it's starting coordinates on the course 3) applies the data mentioned above to the ball This then means that the ball flies off in the same direction and should do everything it did before. Unfortunately, we've found that graphics cards when generating the course sometimes round floating point numbers slightly differently. Not normally an issue in a Call of Duty or Just Cause, but when relying on small undulations means there as slight differences. These are most noticeable on different GFX Cards but the rounding even on the same card can be different. 5.05 can sometime be 5.00 or 5.10, so this causes slight differences in the shot outcome. This is the reason you'll sometimes see different outcomes and maybe why you and your friend were seeing your ball break in different places on the green. We did have a bug with the Wind as well where the wind being stored for tournament replay was actually the course wind at the time not the tournament wind. Which is fixed, i believe as we've tested here and it's working as it should now. Secondly - I've gone back through the code this morning and I can again state that nothing has changed in putting for months and months and there is definitely NO RANDOM added to any putt. It would make the game unplayable if that was the case. If the mechanic had changed I would expect to see a big difference in your stats, but they're pretty close. All I can see, that could be different is maybe the courses you're playing are affecting the smoothness of the shot or maybe a controller issue. Have you tried another one. I know that I play completely differently on what would seem to be 2 identical controllers, because of the use they get here in the office. Could that be the issue? First off I use a mouse. Second of all I have tried multiple mice, everything from Logitech to G.skill to the Razer Mamba. The problem is not the smoothness of the putt. The problem is being on a side hill lie on the green and aiming up hill. One would think that the ball would immediately come off the putter head in the direction that you strike it, but this is not always the case. Sometimes it comes off the head of the putter higher and some times lower, just like ball squirt would do. Concerning the question about GPU differences. This is where I think having a better graphical setup can actually hurt a person. As stated if a person with a 970 GTX attempts the putt, there might be 5 ways to make it but 10 ways to miss it. Would a person with dual SLI 980s have 25 ways to make it and 50 ways to miss (thus keeping the ratio) or are is it something like 10 ways to make and 50 ways to miss? I ask this because when it comes to playing another player, more often it is my putt/chip on their screen that is inaccurate than their shot on my screen. Playing Bradley Garcia, there were 12 times my ball had a different result on his screen, but on my screen it was two times. Is this because I have a more powerful computer than he does? To fix this should I play on a less powerful machine or disable SLI? This same situation has happened playing Ichaoz, Brionne and others, my putt often will be different on their screen while I'm seeing more often what is happening accurately on their screen. I would suggest figuring out a way to save more of the shots. You all introduced a great match play and four ball formats but they are not always enjoyable when you are constantly seeing tee shots go into the woods, then appear on the fairway and putts that don't go in suddenly disappear. We live in a world of high speed internet, I'm sure if it is an extra 3-5 seconds loading we'd be okay with that (yes per shot). Concerning squirt, I made mention to Brionne that it seemed less lately, but what seemed to have picked up is the left/right you get off from a slope in the fairway/rough. The deviation seems to be a bit more than usual. I do hope that we get a slope indicator sometime soon. Being in the rough on a hill that is a fade lie, to have the ball shoot left is mind boggling. Sure it means we were in a little dip, but if I was standing in the rough I would be able to see/feel that little dip on a hill.
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Post by billybudd0623 on Jan 18, 2016 13:15:08 GMT -5
While not perfect, I think putting is the best part of this game. I rarely play a round of real golf or computer golf that I don't have a lip out, especially in the TST. I expect it. Make the drives a little harder and get rid of the lofts beyond the first column and I'd be happy. It is a video game, it will never be perfect. Real golf is not a game of perfect either.
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Post by mcbogga on Jan 18, 2016 13:32:51 GMT -5
Golf is not a game of perfect - my point exactly.
BT - waiting 3-5 seconds per opponent shot? Really? That's a game killer right there. Do agree the match play glitching is annoying. But not more than the omission of core match play concept such as the option to give putts and concede holes. Not really match play without those.
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Post by Anthony Kyne on Jan 18, 2016 13:36:41 GMT -5
With regards your GPU set-up, I think you're thinking of this a little too simply. We don't work out any odd's going into a shot so there is no 1 in 10 chance of getting the ball in the hole, or a 1 in 5 chance of getting the ball in the hole depending on graphics card.
All courses are generated on a grid. The x,y,z co-ordinates are not straight integer numbers they're many decimal floating point numbers. So if the Co-ordinates of point A are x=22.2367455, y=34.6734628, z=3.4675954. so for an example GFX Card A and B round to 3 decimal places. The programmer of the drivers on one might for speed reasons always round down, always round up, round correctly depending on how many points need drawing meaning this but will take short cuts when there's a lot. X=22.237, y=34.673, z=3.468 - rounded correctly X=22.236, y=34.673, z=3.467 - rounded down x=22.237, y=34.674, z=3.468 - rounded Up
As you can see from the set of numbers there are slight differences in each, meaning that if you had another point - point B- with the same variance the terrain would get generated ever so slightly differently giving a slight different break on a putt, or a little more speed going down a hill. So I hope that you can understand, it's very hard for us to control this. There are so many points getting put into the GPU, the drivers take shortcuts not making the game easier or hard, just different.
With regards the ball coming off the putter at a slight angle, that's not any squirt. The ball to club is an animation, as with ghost balls, the club speed, direction, etc is added to the ball and the ball moves along the terrain. The golfer and the club are just visual.
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Post by Brighttail on Jan 18, 2016 14:00:26 GMT -5
With regards your GPU set-up, I think you're thinking of this a little too simply. We don't work out any odd's going into a shot so there is no 1 in 10 chance of getting the ball in the hole, or a 1 in 5 chance of getting the ball in the hole depending on graphics card. All courses are generated on a grid. The x,y,z co-ordinates are not straight integer numbers they're many decimal floating point numbers. So if the Co-ordinates of point A are x=22.2367455, y=34.6734628, z=3.4675954. so for an example GFX Card A and B round to 3 decimal places. The programmer of the drivers on one might for speed reasons always round down, always round up, round correctly depending on how many points need drawing meaning this but will take short cuts when there's a lot. X=22.237, y=34.673, z=3.468 - rounded correctly X=22.236, y=34.673, z=3.467 - rounded down x=22.237, y=34.674, z=3.468 - rounded Up As you can see from the set of numbers there are slight differences in each, meaning that if you had another point - point B- with the same variance the terrain would get generated ever so slightly differently giving a slight different break on a putt, or a little more speed going down a hill. So I hope that you can understand, it's very hard for us to control this. There are so many points getting put into the GPU, the drivers take shortcuts not making the game easier or hard, just different. With regards the ball coming off the putter at a slight angle, that's not any squirt. The ball to club is an animation, as with ghost balls, the club speed, direction, etc is added to the ball and the ball moves along the terrain. The golfer and the club are just visual. Thank you for this explanation. Knowing a bit about drivers, especially nvidia drivers. I know that if a person has a 970 driver and I have a 980 driver the drivers are actually virtually the same since they are both under the 900 frame. The 960 and 980Ti would be slightly different due to the amount of memory in each of the cards. A titan would have even further different drivers due to the 12 megs. It just seems strange that when we are talking rounding differences between z=3.467 and z=3.468 that a putt on one screen goes in and the other goes 10 feet past the hole. Are you sure there aren't other factors involved here? Sorry to be a pain but I have seen balls where my friend is on the green in my screen but dead center of the bunker on his. To me this didn't seem like a rounding discrepancy. I just found it frustrating that my opponent would comment that my shot on their screen was different from mine then the reverse in more than a 2 to 1 margin. I could only conclude that it was because I have a much more powerful machine than most out there. I guess then the only way you could resolve this issue is to literally save the shot from start to finish and then replay it on the other player's screen, which would cause delays due to the amount of memory needed to be transferred on each shot? In the end, thinking about it, I suppose that differences in putting could be a result of the FPS from different courses. I played 4 courses today and had FPS from 65 to 108. All the courses were medium firmness and 187 feet for speed. Since putting is mostly 'feel' the putting did seem different between the courses. Exactly how is hard to say as it is a 'feel' thing. Perhaps that is the issue here, i'm looking for consistency in a game that has a design that will prevent that due to a variety of factors. Therefore we are consistently going to be having to adapt. Some courses hole speed will be better while others putting through the break will yield better results.
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Post by Anthony Kyne on Jan 18, 2016 14:08:03 GMT -5
The difference isn't just between z=3.467 and z=3.468 though it's between 100's of points that might be out by small amounts. Meaning a slight slope could be created over a 40 point section, where another is flat. Highly unlikely as it's an extreme but still possible.
Also it's not just about where the ball lands, it's also the lie of the ball. So it might be a flat lie on a fairway, giving you the flight and direction you want to the middle of the green. Where on your friends you might be on a slight left hill lie
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Post by mcbogga on Jan 18, 2016 14:11:47 GMT -5
Is the ball floating over the cup glitch related to this as well?
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Post by Morgan-esque on Jan 18, 2016 14:17:34 GMT -5
I've a question about putting. Does the speed of moving the stick back and forth have an effect on the speed of the putt? I'm adamant that if I do it fast it shoots off like a rocket. This is a big issue for me on small putts.
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Post by Brighttail on Jan 18, 2016 14:18:34 GMT -5
Is the ball floating over the cup glitch related to this as well? I was about to ask this. Since on the original shot, shows the ball going over the middle of the hole without so much as a bump, hop or skip. Often on replay tho, it shows it going over the edge, which wouldn't necessarily have the expected bump. Going over the hole, physics says the ball must drop, even slightly thus it would have to generate a little hop as it hits the back of the cup. Also why then are replays on my own computer, which has the same GPU, often have different results? The rounding should be the same. I go back to the hole in one i scored and viewed 10 replays with varying results.
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Post by Anthony Kyne on Jan 18, 2016 14:20:29 GMT -5
Is the ball floating over the cup glitch related to this as well? As in just floating above it? I haven't heard of that. Or as in continuing over it when moving? From all the examples I've seen in the debugger the ball was travelling at too high a velocity to drop
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Post by Roosroan on Jan 18, 2016 15:54:06 GMT -5
Thanks to this thread I replayed a missed 4-footer which let me in shock. I looped the replay for 10 putts and they all went in. Must be blue monday
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Post by Brighttail on Jan 18, 2016 18:11:06 GMT -5
Thanks to this thread I replayed a missed 4-footer which let me in shock. I looped the replay for 10 putts and they all went in. Must be blue monday I'm sorry. I think that is probably the biggest thing that irks me. My computer, same GPU, different results.
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Post by Anthony Kyne on Jan 18, 2016 18:30:40 GMT -5
Thanks to this thread I replayed a missed 4-footer which let me in shock. I looped the replay for 10 putts and they all went in. Must be blue monday I'm sorry. I think that is probably the biggest thing that irks me. My computer, same GPU, different results. Yes, and unfortunately it's something we've been looking at improving since before release. The problem is, is that if the rounding the gpu does is not consistent we can't do anything except save the whole shot. This could lead to the ball going through the ground on the replay though
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