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Post by Deleted on Jan 4, 2016 15:28:16 GMT -5
Things are starting to come together slowly. I'm still not sure about my wind maths so if you guys could check out a few examples I'd really appreciate it. I do have the Excel spreadsheet but just want to make sure I have this down right.
Example 1) 165 yard approach shot Pin is 9 feet above the golfer. Winds are head long into me at 8 mph. The way I am calculating the distance is I add 3 yards (9/3) for the pin height and then I add another 16 yards (double the wind strength) giving me a total of 184 yards that I have to carry. Correct?
Example 2) 182 yard approach shot Pin is 12 feet below golfer. Winds are tail winds at 10 mph. The way I am calculating distance is subtract 4 yards (12/3) for pin height and subtract another 10 yards (wind strength) giving me a total of 168 yards that I have to carry. Correct?
Example 3) 195 yard approach shot Pin is 7 feet above golfer. Winds are south east at 15 mph. This is the one that gives me tons of trouble. I add 2 yards for the pin height. But what do I do with the winds? They're not head winds so it's not double strength into me and they're not tail winds, single strength away from me. Plus I have to figure that to some degree the ball is going to go from left to right. What I'm doing now is taking half the wind strength (7.5) and adding half of that to it (3.75) and coming up with about 11 to 12 yards to add to shot. Is this right or am I way off?
Example 4) 178 yard approach shot Pin is 2 feet below golfer. Winds are north west at 12 mph. This is another one that gives me some trouble. Not a true tail wind because it's slightly right to left, I simply subtract half the wind strength from 178 giving me 172. I subtract one more yard (2 feet is close enough to a yard) giving me 171 to carry. Is this close or am I way off.
Then there is carry distance once the ball hits the green. I have no idea how to compute that. The sheet doesn't make sens to me on this one.
Thanks for your assistance.
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Post by Andrea on Jan 4, 2016 16:01:35 GMT -5
Keep in mind that the calculation you're going through here will give you (hopefully at least) the distance of a shot directly to the pin - on the exact spot of the pin. So when in example #1 you have 184 yards you have the distance from your position to the pin. Then you should subtract a couple of yards, accordingly to: a) bounce and roll factor of the greens; b) head or tail wind - the first is gonna stop your ball while the second is gonna make it roll; c) the slopes in case you wanna avoid or make use of some. Of course at this point you should also consider that bounces and rolls will depend not only from the green firmness but also from the club and the loft you'll eventually add. For example, on a green with medium firmness, a 180 yard shot with a 5 IRON will roll roughly 5 to 7 yards, while the same shot lofting up a 3 IRON 2 bars and a bit will probably roll around 2 - 3 yards, and sometimes even backspin a bit on a sloped surface. That said your calculation, from my point of view are: #1 - CORRECT (which means I will do the exact same - maybe the TOP guys are calculating differently...I can't tell) #2 - WRONG because when there's a straight tail wind I will subtract 1.5 times the value; in your case 10MPH wind = 15 yards #3 - Agarin I'll say WRONG; on what I call a 45° wind I'll subtract the entire value of the wind - in your case 12. However, if the wind is not perfectly like this / or \ I'll adjust accordingly - adding or subtracting slightly more. Plus there's A LOT I'm still learning. For example: when I use a PW, LW or SW I noticed my standard calculations are wrong. In those cases I found more functional using a 1.0 multiplier for straight winds (both tail and head), a 0.5 for the "45°" and so on. Even more: on the pitch shots (which I use a lot inside the 80 yard) I found that winds below 10-12 are almost irrelevant. And last but not least: all the wind math, at least in my experience, goes a bit south when you're shooting to a green greatly below or above you - and for "greatly" I mean over 25-30 feet. I recently had a shot going at least 15 yard short (with no clue why) on a PAR 3 in which the green was 52 feet below the tee shot. This is why I value so much sharing: if we can compare stats and experiences we can "solve those mysteries"
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Post by Deleted on Jan 4, 2016 16:43:55 GMT -5
Keep in mind that the calculation you're going through here will give you (hopefully at least) the distance of a shot directly to the pin - on the exact spot of the pin. So when in example #1 you have 184 yards you have the distance from your position to the pin. Then you should subtract a couple of yards, accordingly to: a) bounce and roll factor of the greens; b) head or tail wind - the first is gonna stop your ball while the second is gonna make it roll; c) the slopes in case you wanna avoid or make use of some. Of course at this point you should also consider that bounces and rolls will depend not only from the green firmness but also from the club and the loft you'll eventually add. For example, on a green with medium firmness, a 180 yard shot with a 5 IRON will roll roughly 5 to 7 yards, while the same shot lofting up a 3 IRON 2 bars and a bit will probably roll around 2 - 3 yards, and sometimes even backspin a bit on a sloped surface. That said your calculation, from my point of view are: #1 - CORRECT (which means I will do the exact same - maybe the TOP guys are calculating differently...I can't tell) #2 - WRONG because when there's a straight tail wind I will subtract 1.5 times the value; in your case 10MPH wind = 15 yards #3 - Agarin I'll say WRONG; on what I call a 45° wind I'll subtract the entire value of the wind - in your case 12. However, if the wind is not perfectly like this / or \ I'll adjust accordingly - adding or subtracting slightly more. Plus there's A LOT I'm still learning. For example: when I use a PW, LW or SW I noticed my standard calculations are wrong. In those cases I found more functional using a 1.0 multiplier for straight winds (both tail and head), a 0.5 for the "45°" and so on. Even more: on the pitch shots (which I use a lot inside the 80 yard) I found that winds below 10-12 are almost irrelevant. And last but not least: all the wind math, at least in my experience, goes a bit south when you're shooting to a green greatly below or above you - and for "greatly" I mean over 25-30 feet. I recently had a shot going at least 15 yard short (with no clue why) on a PAR 3 in which the green was 52 feet below the tee shot. This is why I value so much sharing: if we can compare stats and experiences we can "solve those mysteries" Thank you Andrea. This helps a lot. So in other words, not an exact science under all conditions.
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Post by Andrea on Jan 4, 2016 17:20:08 GMT -5
Keep in mind that the calculation you're going through here will give you (hopefully at least) the distance of a shot directly to the pin - on the exact spot of the pin. So when in example #1 you have 184 yards you have the distance from your position to the pin. Then you should subtract a couple of yards, accordingly to: a) bounce and roll factor of the greens; b) head or tail wind - the first is gonna stop your ball while the second is gonna make it roll; c) the slopes in case you wanna avoid or make use of some. Of course at this point you should also consider that bounces and rolls will depend not only from the green firmness but also from the club and the loft you'll eventually add. For example, on a green with medium firmness, a 180 yard shot with a 5 IRON will roll roughly 5 to 7 yards, while the same shot lofting up a 3 IRON 2 bars and a bit will probably roll around 2 - 3 yards, and sometimes even backspin a bit on a sloped surface. That said your calculation, from my point of view are: #1 - CORRECT (which means I will do the exact same - maybe the TOP guys are calculating differently...I can't tell) #2 - WRONG because when there's a straight tail wind I will subtract 1.5 times the value; in your case 10MPH wind = 15 yards #3 - Agarin I'll say WRONG; on what I call a 45° wind I'll subtract the entire value of the wind - in your case 12. However, if the wind is not perfectly like this / or \ I'll adjust accordingly - adding or subtracting slightly more. Plus there's A LOT I'm still learning. For example: when I use a PW, LW or SW I noticed my standard calculations are wrong. In those cases I found more functional using a 1.0 multiplier for straight winds (both tail and head), a 0.5 for the "45°" and so on. Even more: on the pitch shots (which I use a lot inside the 80 yard) I found that winds below 10-12 are almost irrelevant. And last but not least: all the wind math, at least in my experience, goes a bit south when you're shooting to a green greatly below or above you - and for "greatly" I mean over 25-30 feet. I recently had a shot going at least 15 yard short (with no clue why) on a PAR 3 in which the green was 52 feet below the tee shot. This is why I value so much sharing: if we can compare stats and experiences we can "solve those mysteries" Thank you Andrea. This helps a lot. So in other words, not an exact science under all conditions. At least for me and for now it is not But rest assured that it is ONLY a matter of calculations. On tourneys up on Euro I played couple of times with ghosts of the TOP 5 guys on the WGR...and apart from some risky drive went wrong they rarely misjudge approach distances. Off course they came up long or short like everyone does...just way less and almost never too much. So I'm assuming they have so much more experience or they have figured out better calculations. There's a couple of threads under the DRIVING RANGE where the wind calculations are discussed and one of the top guys at a point said that he's basically doing something different for every club or at least "category of club". Like long irons (3I, 4I), short irons (9I, PW, LW, SW), "in-between" (5I, 6I, 7I, 8I) and woods. Also he said he takes in great consideration the height of the pin (above / below golfer) to change his calculations. Problem is all this uber-top guys seems to be not so inclined to share all their "secrets"....I've tried to figure it out myself but I'm not totally there yet. The thing I'm strongly missing is a practice facility where I can toy around even with the wind....cause honestly, week in and week out, I'd rather rely on my calculations (which led me from CC to Euro) then going wild with experiments. Besides practice all this little adjustments takes a lot of time. Recently I started playing CC tournaments with a friend of mine which is in CC - just for the chit chat, the fun of studying a course together and also to test myself against a course without any practice. Maybe I'll try to use this environment to experiment a bit more instead of competing...so hopes are I'll be able to came up with something for all of us. I think a good idea will be keeping a single thread/post where we could keep all of our progress in "reading" the game, and discuss about theories, findings, experiments and calculations. At least for who's willing to share Should we?
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Post by Deleted on Jan 4, 2016 18:42:44 GMT -5
Thank you Andrea. This helps a lot. So in other words, not an exact science under all conditions. At least for me and for now it is not But rest assured that it is ONLY a matter of calculations. On tourneys up on Euro I played couple of times with ghosts of the TOP 5 guys on the WGR...and apart from some risky drive went wrong they rarely misjudge approach distances. Off course they came up long or short like everyone does...just way less and almost never too much. So I'm assuming they have so much more experience or they have figured out better calculations. There's a couple of threads under the DRIVING RANGE where the wind calculations are discussed and one of the top guys at a point said that he's basically doing something different for every club or at least "category of club". Like long irons (3I, 4I), short irons (9I, PW, LW, SW), "in-between" (5I, 6I, 7I, 8I) and woods. Also he said he takes in great consideration the height of the pin (above / below golfer) to change his calculations. Problem is all this uber-top guys seems to be not so inclined to share all their "secrets"....I've tried to figure it out myself but I'm not totally there yet. The thing I'm strongly missing is a practice facility where I can toy around even with the wind....cause honestly, week in and week out, I'd rather rely on my calculations (which led me from CC to Euro) then going wild with experiments. Besides practice all this little adjustments takes a lot of time. Recently I started playing CC tournaments with a friend of mine which is in CC - just for the chit chat, the fun of studying a course together and also to test myself against a course without any practice. Maybe I'll try to use this environment to experiment a bit more instead of competing...so hopes are I'll be able to came up with something for all of us. I think a good idea will be keeping a single thread/post where we could keep all of our progress in "reading" the game, and discuss about theories, findings, experiments and calculations. At least for who's willing to share Should we? Andrea, I am for anything that improves the game of the players. As a novice at this game, I wouldn't even know where to begin so I will leave that to the better players such as yourself.
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Post by HeMan1202 on Jan 4, 2016 19:02:42 GMT -5
Things are starting to come together slowly. I'm still not sure about my wind maths so if you guys could check out a few examples I'd really appreciate it. I do have the Excel spreadsheet but just want to make sure I have this down right. Everyone is different but I will tell you mine based on your examples.Example 1) 165 yard approach shot Pin is 9 feet above the golfer. Winds are head long into me at 8 mph. The way I am calculating the distance is I add 3 yards (9/3) for the pin height and then I add another 16 yards (double the wind strength) giving me a total of 184 yards that I have to carry. Correct? This is correct, plus add roll out (less for head wind, more for tail wind). I know you said carry but just wanted to throw this in.Example 2) 182 yard approach shot Pin is 12 feet below golfer. Winds are tail winds at 10 mph. The way I am calculating distance is subtract 4 yards (12/3) for pin height and subtract another 10 yards (wind strength) giving me a total of 168 yards that I have to carry. Correct? This is correct but also depends on the club. Usually with a straight tail wind it will carry your ball a little more. When going over water or going into a tight pin, error on the side of caution. It is important to note that wind effects the clubs differently. Wedges are effected less by wind than your lower irons (until the winds get high, then it evens out a bit).Example 3) 195 yard approach shot Pin is 7 feet above golfer. Winds are south east at 15 mph. This is the one that gives me tons of trouble. I add 2 yards for the pin height. But what do I do with the winds? They're not head winds so it's not double strength into me and they're not tail winds, single strength away from me. Plus I have to figure that to some degree the ball is going to go from left to right. What I'm doing now is taking half the wind strength (7.5) and adding half of that to it (3.75) and coming up with about 11 to 12 yards to add to shot. Is this right or am I way off? This is wrong. 195 + 2 yards (7/2) + 22 (15+7) = 219 yards carry. Also note that when winds get that high it effects the distance more so it may be even more than that. If there is a head wind, I take the total wind (15 in this case) and I picture tick marks between E and S that total 15. Wherever the wind meter lies on those imaginary tick marks I also add that (so middle, directly SE, would be around 7/8). Hopefully that made sense.Example 4) 178 yard approach shot Pin is 2 feet below golfer. Winds are north west at 12 mph. This is another one that gives me some trouble. Not a true tail wind because it's slightly right to left, I simply subtract half the wind strength from 178 giving me 172. I subtract one more yard (2 feet is close enough to a yard) giving me 171 to carry. Is this close or am I way off. This is correct. The only note I would add in is the tail wind is going to effect the ball more the higher the winds. Honestly, with a NW tailwind at 12mph, I would take off closer to 10 yards for that.Then there is carry distance once the ball hits the green. I have no idea how to compute that. The sheet doesn't make sens to me on this one. Roll out depends on a few things, namely green firmness, green speed, wind direction, and loft. Grid squares generally equal 1yard. Your lower irons and woods will obviously have way more roll out than your higher irons, but that can change with a large head wind and soft greens. Try starting with 5 yards of roll out and then go from there based on experience. Make sure the green allows for the roll out though (count the grid squares to the edge of the green to make sure you have enough room).
Lots of practice I am sure I don't have everything down or even correct, but it works for me for the most part.Thanks for your assistance.
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Post by unclefester75 on Jan 5, 2016 22:07:52 GMT -5
I think the calculations break down with extreme elevations changes. For example, a par three where the pin is below the tee box say 43ft and the wind is in your face, I never seem to get good results with this situation. I come up short. I believe the wind has more time to affect the ball. Same is true is it is a tail wind and an elevated green or any combination thereof.
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Post by Doyley on Jan 5, 2016 22:21:22 GMT -5
I think the calculations break down with extreme elevations changes. For example, a par three where the pin is below the tee box say 43ft and the wind is in your face, I never seem to get good results with this situation. I come up short. I believe the wind has more time to affect the ball. Same is true is it is a tail wind and an elevated green or any combination thereof. good rule of thumb is anything over 40 feet divide by 4 instead of 3
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Post by Deleted on Jan 5, 2016 23:04:10 GMT -5
Shots hit into greens that are far downhill are subject to the wind moreso because the ball is in the air longer.
Conversely, shot into uphill greens (think 20+ feet) are in the air less amount of time, and the elevation isn't quite what it would be with dividing by 3.
BUT
Keep these in mind...
A shot into a green quite a bit downhill will have more of a downward arc than a forward arc. That means it will roll out less than if the same shot was hit into a level green. The opposite is true hitting into an uphill green. The ball has more forward momentum and less downward momentum than the same shot hit into a level green, so it will roll out more.
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