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Post by hallzballz6908 on Nov 6, 2020 12:51:36 GMT -5
Hey all! I would like to start a discussion on why “blind” bunkers seem to be such design pariah in the community here. Definitely not trying to start a war or anything but I’ve played many courses in my life that have bunkers and/or other hazards that are in play but not necessarily visible when playing a shot. I’ve always felt that some courses are unfairly judged for having blind hazards on them. My argument here is that as long as the hazards in question are well sculpted and “fit” in the design, is it really that big of a deal if they’re not always visible? Especially in this game with the scout cam and yardage book, the “blind shot” is pretty much a moot point, at least in my opinion. Would love to hear some thoughts from my fellow forum members regarding this!
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Post by b101 on Nov 6, 2020 13:26:14 GMT -5
If done well and fit the style of course, they’re fine. If you’ve played to the ‘wrong’ part of a fairway and haven’t earned a clear view, I have no issue with a bunker being blind. But, in real life, far more aren’t blind than are and it’ll tend to be links courses which have the blind bunkers.
In TGC world, the blind bunkers I have an issue with are the ones where people never planned for them to be blind and haven’t sculpted well to craft their sightlines properly. Sadly, that’s 99% of the blind bunkers we see in game. Very, very few people do blind bunkers well.
And yeah, we do have scout cam, but I think the blind principle still applies - think TST settings.
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Post by 15eicheltower9 on Nov 6, 2020 13:27:34 GMT -5
*opens designer *hides a bunker
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Post by Q on Nov 6, 2020 13:33:05 GMT -5
Interested in what your thoughts are on bunkers that are blind because another bunker is in front of them. If consistent throughout the course you can assume certain angles where you see a bunker, there's another one lurking on the same line.
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Post by Violinguy69 on Nov 6, 2020 13:33:59 GMT -5
Hey all! I would like to start a discussion on why “blind” bunkers seem to be such design pariah in the community here. Definitely not trying to start a war or anything but I’ve played many courses in my life that have bunkers and/or other hazards that are in play but not necessarily visible when playing a shot. I’ve always felt that some courses are unfairly judged for having blind hazards on them. My argument here is that as long as the hazards in question are well sculpted and “fit” in the design, is it really that big of a deal if they’re not always visible? Especially in this game with the scout cam and yardage book, the “blind shot” is pretty much a moot point, at least in my opinion. Would love to hear some thoughts from my fellow forum members regarding this! I don't know if I have as much trouble with bunkers as I do, say, with actual hazards or OB. True story - I was playing a course IRL that I had never played before. I hit a bad drive that went in the water. Oops. My bad. I took a drop and flushed a 5 iron right at the pin. Man that felt good. My playing partner walked over and casually said, "That's wet." I didn't know there was water in front of the green. The TST guys don't use the scout camera. There shouldn't be any surprises. Yes this is a video game, but good design principals make for better courses, just like IRL.
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Post by CiB0RG on Nov 6, 2020 13:34:30 GMT -5
Here's my thoughts on this... some may disagree but oh well. Blind bunkers definitely have their place in golf but for the purpose of a video game most people don't study the layout of the hole before firing one off the tee so at least having an indicator that some sort of hidden hazard is there will leave people less frustrated, especially those that play true-sim style. Let's be honest here most players will be able to find a hidden bunker with the scout cam anyway but If you somehow place a blind bunker in one of your designs that sort of "baits" players to unknowingly take it on, yes, it is their fault for not studying the yardage book or properly using their scout cam but it will likely still rub people the wrong way. As far as including them in your designs the safe way to go is to at least have some visual indicator of hazards. Personally as long as the hazard fits the landscape and seems to have strategic value then it wouldn't bother me. Especially if the course is an RCR or going for a really authentic feel, the blind bunker has it's place. As a designer I want people to frustrate themselves with their horrible play, not frustrated the course is playing mind games with them lol.
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Post by b101 on Nov 6, 2020 13:57:30 GMT -5
Interested in what your thoughts are on bunkers that are blind because another bunker is in front of them. If consistent throughout the course you can assume certain angles where you see a bunker, there's another one lurking on the same line. You'd still tend to layer them though so that all are visible. Not necessarily all of them, but parts of the lips. Not the best example, but:
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Post by hallzballz6908 on Nov 6, 2020 14:28:17 GMT -5
Psyched to see all the input so far! I would like to ask another opinion-type question. How would you define a blind hazard? I would define it as not being able to see the hazard at all. I don’t need to see sand or water as long as I can see the lip or contouring typically associated with a hazard to be able to reasonably assume that there is one there. Thoughts? I’m also not entirely familiar with TST rules. Do they not have access to the yardage book feature? If they don’t, then I could certainly identify with the frustrations associated with too many invisible obstacles
Do you guys ever feel like you have to unrealistically tilt a bunker to make sure it’s visible? I guess it’s my own opinion but I’d rather design or play courses with hazards that look realistic that might not necessarily be visible then ones that have unrealistic sculpting just to make sure they’re visible from any reasonable line of play.
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Post by hallzballz6908 on Nov 6, 2020 14:32:27 GMT -5
*opens designer *hides a bunker Lol love this😂
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Post by hallzballz6908 on Nov 6, 2020 14:47:41 GMT -5
Sorry for multiple posts but just wanted to make one thing clear. I’m not in any way advocating that someone’s course should have blind hazards as a theme and in 99.9% of cases I feel like any hazards that are an automatic penalty (water, OB) should certainly be clearly visible due to the extremely penal nature of the hazard and the intimidation factors associated with them. One of the main reasons I wanted to start a discussion on this is because I see so many courses get negative feedback for having one or two blind bunkers that may not necessarily be justified especially if the designer purposely designed them to be that way. Have any of you designers out there ever designed a blind bunker on purpose? If so, any tips on designing them in a way that won’t make players want to burn the course down? I’m asking more in specific regards to pot bunkers or other flat-bottom style bunkers rather then more traditionally styled ones. Thanks in advance for any input!
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Post by lessthanbread on Nov 6, 2020 14:54:18 GMT -5
The way I do hazards/bunkers is if I can make them visible without the sculpting looking weird/forced in order to do it, I will. However, I do not have a problem with hazards being blind as long as the safe landing area is apparent. For example, I don't have a problem with a blind bunker to the left or right of the fairway when the landing zone in the fairway is visible. If the golfer pushes or pulls their shot into the blind bunker off the fairway, that's their fault they missed the apparent landing zone. If the bunker/hazard is in the way of the shot, meaning you must go over or layup short of it, it should be visible, such as a water hazard in front of a green as stated above. If someone doesn't know a hazard is directly between them and the target, that's not fair in my opinion
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Post by Q on Nov 6, 2020 15:05:03 GMT -5
lessthanbread those bunkers are a dream! Give me a few 100 more hours in the designer and I might actually be able to replicate those bunkers lol. Otherwise, I agree with everything you typed. A lot of the time I feel I end up removing bunkers because of being unable to make them both visible and realistic at the same time.
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