stubby3596
Amateur Golfer
Posts: 263
TGCT Name: stubby3596
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Post by stubby3596 on Nov 3, 2020 1:08:42 GMT -5
I've done a lot of learning over the last 6 weeks or so as a new designer and wanted to share my thoughts here in case others are just starting out and can learn something from my experiences.
1. Don't take on a big/complex course for your first try. Start with a fairly basic course plot and layout and stick to the basics of learning how to route holes, sculpt tees, fairways and greens. Mix in some planting and you are on your way. 2. Initially start with a pretty tight layout/route, this will save you time and plant meter down the road. Routing 18 holes that are totally independent will cause you lots of grief and doesn't make for interesting views etc. 3. Watch the great tutorials that are available from Ben (b101) and Andre (crazycanuck1985), they are great resources and you can lots from both of them. 4. Participate in the "under construction" and "completed courses" forums. Give other courses plays and put yourself in the shoes of the designer, what can you learn from them (Both good and bad) 5. Review Ben's video on what it takes to get your course approved and try to take that all in as you build your course. 6. In the future I intend to plot all 18 of my holes out first, do some quick fly throughs to make sure they fit and then start building my "model" hole. I will try to finish as much of that model hole as I can so that I get a sense for the look and feel of my entire course. Then build (and complete) the holes one at a time. 7. If I had to do it all over again, I would not build Hole #1, #2 and #3 as my first three holes on the course. I found they were my worst (and least interesting holes) but its what everyone sees when they play your courses. Start in the middle, figure it out and come back and craft a killer start on the first stretch. 8. Take some high res pictures of your course as you go, if you are finding good ones, it probably means it might not be as good as you think it is.
I've really enjoyed learning how to use this tool and the freedom and creativity it has given me, looking forward to my future designs and applying these lessons that I have learned.
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Post by Violinguy69 on Nov 3, 2020 11:34:59 GMT -5
Excellent list.
#7 is very good advice. If you start with #1 and go from there, the first few holes are probably NOT going to turn out like the rest of the course.
Having done one Lidar course and working on a second, I would encourage all designers to pick and study a real course they like. You don't have to do all the Lidar stuff, but go to open street map and trace out the holes. It'll give you a new perspective on hazard placement, green complexes, and overall routing. Study some of the classics by people like Donald Ross or Tillinghast.
I'm working on Plainfield Country Club (D Ross) right now, and I've learned so much as I build it. There are things on that course that I might never have thought to put in a fictional design. I can't wait to get back to fictional design now after working on 2 real courses.
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Post by yeltzman on Nov 3, 2020 13:07:31 GMT -5
My advice design for yourself and find your own style and look and if its decent other's will enjoy, also take your time you better off designing one good course every 3 months, than 3 average one's in the same time.
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Post by ZoSoSF on Nov 3, 2020 13:48:08 GMT -5
hi Stubby - thanks for the post. just got started last week after finding Chad's tool. the one question i haven't been able to find an answer to is how to update the edited course with the tool after making new changes in OSM. Kent The Lidar King mentioned something in a video about 'splitting the contouring' in order to avoid overwriting edits when re-importing the osm map -- do you know anything about that? most forum questions on this say you can't run the tool again without losing any custom elevations/tree work in the designer. will share thoughts as i get more into the process. i've mapped all the holes in osm (fairways, greens, bunkers, tees) and am working on the cart paths and buildings. i imported the lidar trees and haven't done any custom work to the planting yet because of my question above. still working in osm and checking it in the designer. my first tip working with OSM is to go easy on the spline points. i went overboard trying to create perfect curves and have found that i get the same results with half as many dots on the osm map. the key for me is to, say on a green perimeter, pay attention to the inner green line instead of the dots. if that inner circle is looking uniform it's good. i cut out probably half the dots around the green and still retained the same shape and contours. same with bends in the fairways, etc - if the inner green line looks right, that's it!
also helpful is the 'map data' tab on the right where you choose the map sources etc. you can toggle 'Landuse Features' on and off to see if your splines are matching up with the lines on the course.
thanks -
martin
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Post by virtualgolfer65 on Nov 3, 2020 14:32:51 GMT -5
Another great app for inspiration is GolfBirdie, which you can download at www.golfbirdie.ie/#section-download-nowIt shows flyovers for a lot of courses and is better quality video than Youtube. The tracing of courses is a great tip for seeing hazards, etc, although it can seem unsual to see few bunkers and wonder why a hole is difficult. That is, until you get down to a better perspective and see the huge mounds, rolls, elevation, etc.
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stubby3596
Amateur Golfer
Posts: 263
TGCT Name: stubby3596
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Post by stubby3596 on Nov 3, 2020 16:56:15 GMT -5
martin, I have never experimented with or tried Lidar yet so I can't help you with that.
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Post by abowidow5712 on Nov 3, 2020 17:09:11 GMT -5
I'm right there with you stubby! First course I submitted did not get approved, poor bunker surfacing, too flat, but I have learned a lot myself over the last 6-8 weeks or so. I wasn't told it wasn't playable so that's a bonus for me. Excellent list, well thought out. I think the best advice anybody can give is check out the tutorial videos on YouTube from Crazycanuck, b101, and Jerry Shields has some good content as well. Violinguy just put out some good content too. Never stop learning and one of the best ways to learn is from successful people. Definitely do your own research on the history of golf course architecture. There really isn't a long list of people that had such a tremendous impact on the game, but their design philosophies shaped the game of golf and are well worth learning about. C.B. McDonald is the first architect to learn about. Him, Seth Raynor, Donald Ross, and A.W. Tillinghast basically created championship golf here in the United States. Violinguy best of luck creating Plainfield CC, very difficult to do. There's over 100 ft of elevation change from the bottom of the course to the top and it will be challenging to create the hills in the fairways. It's a mountain course in the suburbs of Central Jersey, a lot of fun to play. I'm an assistant superintendent there, excellent Donald Ross golf course.
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Post by abowidow5712 on Nov 3, 2020 17:16:28 GMT -5
Charles Blair Macdonald, not McDonald. That man deserves his name spelt correctly. Maybe the most important figure in golf course architecture and design.
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Post by ZoSoSF on Nov 3, 2020 17:17:12 GMT -5
my mistake - you mentioned the 'tool' in your post and i thought you were referring to Chad's tool. see ya on the fairways..
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Post by Celtic Wolf on Nov 3, 2020 19:21:02 GMT -5
The best advice I can give is to design for yourself, not for plays, tour stops or ratings. If you enjoy designing it's half the battle, also have something else in the pipeline so you don't get too attached to a course so as soon as one is published you can move on.
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Post by Violinguy69 on Nov 3, 2020 22:01:20 GMT -5
Violinguy best of luck creating Plainfield CC, very difficult to do. There's over 100 ft of elevation change from the bottom of the course to the top and it will be challenging to create the hills in the fairways. It's a mountain course in the suburbs of Central Jersey, a lot of fun to play. I'm an assistant superintendent there, excellent Donald Ross golf course. I'm really enjoying it so far. The elevation is insane. I used to live about 30 minutes north and west and we had actual mountains up there. The lidar projection was pretty dead on. Most of the greens are very severe. A couple are almost too flat. I'm trying my best to stay away from messing with the greens except where I need a little more room for 4 pins. I'm going by the 2015 Barclay's scorecard from the tips, so #5 and #8 are long par 4s now. For a 7000 yard course, it plays like a beast. Very difficult. It's the kind of course I hated playing when I lived up there - holes too close together for my, erm, fade.
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Post by richnufc99 on Nov 4, 2020 11:24:57 GMT -5
I've done a lot of learning over the last 6 weeks or so as a new designer and wanted to share my thoughts here in case others are just starting out and can learn something from my experiences. 1. Don't take on a big/complex course for your first try. Start with a fairly basic course plot and layout and stick to the basics of learning how to route holes, sculpt tees, fairways and greens. Mix in some planting and you are on your way. 2. Initially start with a pretty tight layout/route, this will save you time and plant meter down the road. Routing 18 holes that are totally independent will cause you lots of grief and doesn't make for interesting views etc. 3. Watch the great tutorials that are available from Ben (b101) and Andre (crazycanuck1985), they are great resources and you can lots from both of them. 4. Participate in the "under construction" and "completed courses" forums. Give other courses plays and put yourself in the shoes of the designer, what can you learn from them (Both good and bad) 5. Review Ben's video on what it takes to get your course approved and try to take that all in as you build your course. 6. In the future I intend to plot all 18 of my holes out first, do some quick fly throughs to make sure they fit and then start building my "model" hole. I will try to finish as much of that model hole as I can so that I get a sense for the look and feel of my entire course. Then build (and complete) the holes one at a time. 7. If I had to do it all over again, I would not build Hole #1, #2 and #3 as my first three holes on the course. I found they were my worst (and least interesting holes) but its what everyone sees when they play your courses. Start in the middle, figure it out and come back and craft a killer start on the first stretch. 8. Take some high res pictures of your course as you go, if you are finding good ones, it probably means it might not be as good as you think it is. I've really enjoyed learning how to use this tool and the freedom and creativity it has given me, looking forward to my future designs and applying these lessons that I have learned. Hi Yes that is a good list ... I’d echo most of those... having published my first course and getting it approved. I’d add a couple more... 1. Playtest your course and watch all the cut scenes... if you play your unpublished course and then go into more options and watch replay... this is a great way of watching the course from different perspectives... very different from just playing it... watch out for the scale of everything - really makes you think about that oversized tree or rock you’ve put near the green etc!! 2. Watch ViolinGuy / Jerry shields / b101 and CrazyCanuck - not just the tutorials (which are great)... but also their play throughs and the critiques they give... aim for some of the standards they are looking for and even if you don’t quite make that level you’ll end up with a decent course
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Post by supergolfdude on Nov 4, 2020 14:01:35 GMT -5
I'm a fairly new designer, too, and I also did most of things the way you did. There were a couple of occasions when I really wanted to publish my course, but I'm glad I didn't. I pretty much lived with this course for two months and worked on it every day. I played it over 100 times before I was finally happy with it. I completely re-did entire holes, moved fairway splines, demolished, rebuilt and recontoured greens, and planted-planted-planted!
The tutorials are really helpful from the guys you mention.
Another good source of inspiration is to find the top-rated courses that designers have published and play them a few times. Take note of sight lines, planting and sculpting.
When I was finally finished, I had built a course that I love playing again and again, and I think really captures the look and feel of a real tournament course.
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