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Post by sandsaver01 on Dec 22, 2019 14:08:18 GMT -5
I am publishing this course under the name TPC Old White Lidar V1.0 and hoping for good feedback from both designers and the community. Unlike my last Lidar build Crooked Stick, I have never seen Old White and had to rely on Google Earth and what pictures I could find on Google images. This historic course was originally designed by famous course Architect Charles Blair Macdonald in 1914. It has hosted many amateur and professional tournaments and was to host a FedEx cup tourny in 2016 but was washed out. "Macdonald, the father of American golf course architecture, modeled several holes from some of the most famous throughout Europe. The 8th Hole was styled after the "Redan" at North Berwick, the 13th after the "Alps" at Prestwick and the 15th after the "Eden" at St. Andrews. His associate, Seth Raynor, assisted in the course construction and returned in the 1920s to oversee updates to the golf course."All of the Greenbriar courses were damaged in a flooding of the creek that runs through the property in 2016, so some of the older pictures are not useful. I have tried my best given the limitations of the TGC2019 designer and the plant meter to replicate the course as well as I could, putting the trees where they seemed to go as shown in Google Earth, although not being able to replicate the tree varieties. Below are selected pictures of the course: When you play #9, do not blame me for the green - Lidar shows it is what it is. I had trouble finding four places for legal pins, and even had to flatten one spot a little. Please give this beta course a try and leave me as much feedback positive or constructive as you can. I am open to any reasonable changes or improvements.
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scoll3
Amateur Golfer
Posts: 180
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Post by scoll3 on Dec 22, 2019 19:39:39 GMT -5
Yay! I had a lot of fun watching this course for the Greenbrier earlier this fall, and I’m so pumped that you decided to work on this! You should definitely make a tour version with grandstands and tournament pin positions along with a regular version. Here’s a link to where they put the pin positions: www.pgatour.com/competition/2018/a-military-tribute-at-the-greenbrier/hole-locations.htmlAnyway, I played your beta and it is really good. Like seriously good. I can tell you put lots of effort into flattening the bunkers too- it really brings out Macdonald and Raynor’s architectural style! These are some nit-picky things I noticed while I was playing... you can change whatever you want from my suggestions: The lighting I think should be less intense and farther into the afternoon. Maybe add some haze or fog to make the course more dramatic looking and bring out the subtle contours of the course. Just don’t go too late in the day because having shadows everywhere can be frustrating. For the heavy rough- in many places the heavy rough doesn’t run right up to the fairway and I know you’re trying not to touch the fairway but i’d try to go closer. Besides the bunker lips and fescue areas maybe do heavy rough around the whole course. In my opinion sometimes the regular textured ground can be a little ugly. But it works well on the bunker lips. Not sure how you’re planting meter looks but maybe try putting more trees along the hillside above the course. Especially as you look out on the hill behind the fairway on the first tee. Hole 2 - there’s this one big oak tree you have that hangs over the river and blocks the view a little from the tee... make it smaller or move it back a little Hole 3- I’d stay away from putting any pins in the middle- the tour doesn’t do it and there’s not really enough space in between the ridges. Incredible hole though. Hole 8- There are these pine trees that kinda block the left side of the green- could you move them just a smidge to the left? This redan is really cool nice job with it. Hole 12- that first bunker on the right is sitting up awkwardly, maybe sink it down just a little? Try to keep it flat though. Hole 13- can you try making the whole back of the green one slope? I don’t think the Lidar came in perfectly there bc I’m sure there’s not a mini tier there on top. Hole 14- the green is weirdly sloping off in the back right ... just flatten it. Hole 15- can you move or get rid of the pine tree in the front right of the green? It kinda blocks the tee shot a little. This hole is really cool and I think with lower lighting farther in the afternoon with some haze, this hole can be really dramatic looking. Hole 16/17- the edges of the fairway next to the water are kinda jagged, maybe go through and smooth that all out. I also think you can raise your water level a little. It currently kinda looks like a cliff into the water when the bank in reality is much smaller... That’s about it from what I saw. Keep up the good work this course is already stellar! Thanks for all the time and energy you spent on this course too. Your work on these courses is so valuable to me and the rest of the community. Thank you so much. Hope you have a wonderful Christmas!
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Post by sandsaver01 on Dec 23, 2019 7:51:58 GMT -5
Scoll3 - great input!! Thanks so much for this info, especially the pin sheet, I will try to implement that. I address you other points below. Yay! I had a lot of fun watching this course for the Greenbrier earlier this fall, and I’m so pumped that you decided to work on this! You should definitely make a tour version with grandstands and tournament pin positions along with a regular version. Here’s a link to where they put the pin positions: www.pgatour.com/competition/2018/a-military-tribute-at-the-greenbrier/hole-locations.htmlAnyway, I played your beta and it is really good. Like seriously good. I can tell you put lots of effort into flattening the bunkers too- it really brings out Macdonald and Raynor’s architectural style! These are some nit-picky things I noticed while I was playing... you can change whatever you want from my suggestions: The lighting I think should be less intense and farther into the afternoon. Maybe add some haze or fog to make the course more dramatic looking and bring out the subtle contours of the course. Just don’t go too late in the day because having shadows everywhere can be frustrating. I definitely plan on changing the lighting and adding haze. As for the heavy rough, if you knew how long and tedious it was to get that as close to the fairway as it is you would understand! If I move it even an inch closer it will cause major wavy lt. rough.For the heavy rough- in many places the heavy rough doesn’t run right up to the fairway and I know you’re trying not to touch the fairway but i’d try to go closer. Besides the bunker lips and fescue areas maybe do heavy rough around the whole course. In my opinion sometimes the regular textured ground can be a little ugly. But it works well on the bunker lips. Not sure how you’re planting meter looks but maybe try putting more trees along the hillside above the course. Especially as you look out on the hill behind the fairway on the first tee. Yes, if after I have made any other changes and check the plant meter I do intend to try to fill in the trees on the hillsides. I am sure i cannot get them as dense as in reality though, LOLHole 2 - there’s this one big oak tree you have that hangs over the river and blocks the view a little from the tee... make it smaller or move it back a little DoneHole 3- I’d stay away from putting any pins in the middle- the tour doesn’t do it and there’s not really enough space in between the ridges. Incredible hole though. DoneHole 8- There are these pine trees that kinda block the left side of the green- could you move them just a smidge to the left? This redan is really cool nice job with it. Done Hole 12- that first bunker on the right is sitting up awkwardly, maybe sink it down just a little? Try to keep it flat though. DoneHole 13- can you try making the whole back of the green one slope? I don’t think the Lidar came in perfectly there bc I’m sure there’s not a mini tier there on top. Done, but it might make pin 3 illegalHole 14- the green is weirdly sloping off in the back right ... just flatten it. DoneHole 15- can you move or get rid of the pine tree in the front right of the green? It kinda blocks the tee shot a little. This hole is really cool and I think with lower lighting farther in the afternoon with some haze, this hole can be really dramatic looking. DoneHole 16/17- the edges of the fairway next to the water are kinda jagged, maybe go through and smooth that all out. I also think you can raise your water level a little. It currently kinda looks like a cliff into the water when the bank in reality is much smaller... Raised the lake on #16 and smoothed the bank. #17 is harder to implement because it is a river and the water level changes continuously. I may do it maybe not.That’s about it from what I saw. Keep up the good work this course is already stellar! Thanks for all the time and energy you spent on this course too. Your work on these courses is so valuable to me and the rest of the community. Thank you so much. Hope you have a wonderful Christmas! Thanks again. What platform did you play on, and did you notice any stuttering or lag? On the laptop I use for designing I get a lot of FPS lagging when I play-test, so I want to know how it is on a better platform.
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scoll3
Amateur Golfer
Posts: 180
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Post by scoll3 on Dec 23, 2019 11:40:53 GMT -5
I play on PS4 and it played perfectly no lagging whatsoever. So for now it’s good!
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Post by joegolferg on Dec 23, 2019 12:33:24 GMT -5
Here are my thoughts...
Hole 1 - The tee shot is blind because of the mound and planting. I'd flatten as the mound to give the player a view of the fairway. That mound doesn't exist in real life. The width of the first green just seems off to me. I'm sure it isn't as narrow as that.
Hole 2 - The tee shot is massively obscure by the oak tree on the edge of the water. There is more room off the tee in real life.
Hole 6 - The C shaped greenside bunker sits down into the ground with a grass face.
Hole 9 - I'm just not convinced that this green has the correct contours. The whole of the right side feeds to the left rather than there being a hogs back running through. The front right of this green is definitely incorrect as it would even drain properly.
Hole 10 - This hole has a nice clear look down the fairway, that tree on the right the obscures the view a little, needs to go. It also seems that the front plateau is much milder than it is in real life, I'd suggest raising it up 0.5ft.
Hole 15 - Another tree by the green that obscures too much of the view. The length of the hole is a travesty, but obviously that isn't your fault. I personally would take the liberty of putting the tee forward to somewhere between 185-195yds.
Hole 18 - The green contours on this hole are certainly incorrect. The short template is famous for its 'thumbprint' and I know that Old White has a very prominent one after the renovations that took place after the flood. The thumbprint is an extremely integral part of this hole and needs to be put in place.
Few other notes...
These things can vary from person to person but I'd personally go over every single bunker to endure there are no crinkled edges and all of the bottoms of the bunkers are flat. The soft oval brush is the tool for this. I'd also put heavy rough down in all the non grassed areas to give it that lush Old White spring/summer look. Your transitions of fairway into green could merge better overall. I also felt that the tree sizes were out of proportion especially the pine and fir trees, some seemed too big to fit properly. Getting the look and atmosphere is all about the details, you should plant as many trees as you can to box in the course and give it that Virginia look.
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Post by sandsaver01 on Dec 23, 2019 16:38:13 GMT -5
Here are my thoughts... Hole 1 - The tee shot is blind because of the mound and planting. I'd flatten as the mound to give the player a view of the fairway. That mound doesn't exist in real life. The width of the first green just seems off to me. I'm sure it isn't as narrow as that. I did not like the blind tee shot as well - fixed (although I had to lower the front two tee positions a couple feet. You were right, the first green was too narrow, enlarged it about three yards to match Google earth measurements. Hole 2 - The tee shot is massively obscure by the oak tree on the edge of the water. There is more room off the tee in real life. Moved treeHole 6 - The C shaped greenside bunker sits down into the ground with a grass face. Lowered that complex two feetHole 9 - I'm just not convinced that this green has the correct contours. The whole of the right side feeds to the left rather than there being a hogs back running through. The front right of this green is definitely incorrect as it would even drain properly. My quandary on this green and number 18 is that I do not know how to fix it - I could just smooth them out, but why have lidar if you do not believe it? I am open to suggestions.
Hole 10 - This hole has a nice clear look down the fairway, that tree on the right the obscures the view a little, needs to go. It also seems that the front plateau is much milder than it is in real life, I'd suggest raising it up 0.5ft. Moved tree, did not mess with plateau at this timeHole 15 - Another tree by the green that obscures too much of the view. The length of the hole is a travesty, but obviously that isn't your fault. I personally would take the liberty of putting the tee forward to somewhere between 185-195yds. Moved treeHole 18 - The green contours on this hole are certainly incorrect. The short template is famous for its 'thumbprint' and I know that Old White has a very prominent one after the renovations that took place after the flood. The thumbprint is an extremely integral part of this hole and needs to be put in place. Few other notes... These things can vary from person to person but I'd personally go over every single bunker to endure there are no crinkled edges and all of the bottoms of the bunkers are flat. The soft oval brush is the tool for this. I'd also put heavy rough down in all the non grassed areas to give it that lush Old White spring/summer look. Your transitions of fairway into green could merge better overall. I also felt that the tree sizes were out of proportion especially the pine and fir trees, some seemed too big to fit properly. Getting the look and atmosphere is all about the details, you should plant as many trees as you can to box in the course and give it that Virginia look. I have worked my ass off trying to make these bunkers as flat as I can. I am willing to send you the course file if you want to make them better, otherwise they are what they are. I am thinking about the rough. I looked at a number of pictures of the course and I thought the trees were pretty darned big. When I have finished the course proper I plan on filling out the exterior and the hills with trees, but I don't want to max out the plant meter until the playable part is ready.
I do appreciate your input. I am somewhat uneasy that you did not find anything good to say about the course, but Marxists are not usually positive people.
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Post by joegolferg on Dec 24, 2019 10:44:20 GMT -5
Admittedly, reading Marx does tend to turn a person to critique above all else. With this being a beta thread I purposely focused on the things I felt were important, things that are integral to the real life course, and when you officially release the course I'll list the things I like/don't like. I'd love to help out in any way possible but I'm on PS4 and have no access to a PC capable of running TGC.
The Raynor bunkering is much more difficult to get right than it seems, and I can tell in some areas that you've attempted to get them flattened out. If you've done the best you can then that is fair enough and I'm not criticizing your skills as a designer, those bunkers are tough and extremely time consuming.
Glad to see you've made some changes and I did have one more thing in mind that I forgot to list. On the par three Redan hole did you put in the bunker that sits behind the kicker slope at the back right of the green? And I noticed a big pothole on the right side of the green entrance that shouldn't be there, the run up to the kicker is very smooth in real life.
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Post by sandsaver01 on Dec 24, 2019 11:47:55 GMT -5
Admittedly, reading Marx does tend to turn a person to critique above all else. With this being a beta thread I purposely focused on the things I felt were important, things that are integral to the real life course, and when you officially release the course I'll list the things I like/don't like. I'd love to help out in any way possible but I'm on PS4 and have no access to a PC capable of running TGC. The Raynor bunkering is much more difficult to get right than it seems, and I can tell in some areas that you've attempted to get them flattened out. If you've done the best you can then that is fair enough and I'm not criticizing your skills as a designer, those bunkers are tough and extremely time consuming. Glad to see you've made some changes and I did have one more thing in mind that I forgot to list. On the par three Redan hole did you put in the bunker that sits behind the kicker slope at the back right of the green? And I noticed a big pothole on the right side of the green entrance that shouldn't be there, the run up to the kicker is very smooth in real life. No worries Joe, I was just yanking your chain . I assume when you talk about "the redan hole" you mean #8 "Redan". According to the Google earth timeline the bunker you are referring to was removed sometime between 2005 and 2007. I will investigate the pothole situation. Thanks again for you obviously knowledgeable input.
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Post by joegolferg on Dec 24, 2019 12:12:43 GMT -5
Admittedly, reading Marx does tend to turn a person to critique above all else. With this being a beta thread I purposely focused on the things I felt were important, things that are integral to the real life course, and when you officially release the course I'll list the things I like/don't like. I'd love to help out in any way possible but I'm on PS4 and have no access to a PC capable of running TGC. The Raynor bunkering is much more difficult to get right than it seems, and I can tell in some areas that you've attempted to get them flattened out. If you've done the best you can then that is fair enough and I'm not criticizing your skills as a designer, those bunkers are tough and extremely time consuming. Glad to see you've made some changes and I did have one more thing in mind that I forgot to list. On the par three Redan hole did you put in the bunker that sits behind the kicker slope at the back right of the green? And I noticed a big pothole on the right side of the green entrance that shouldn't be there, the run up to the kicker is very smooth in real life. No worries Joe, I was just yanking your chain . I assume when you talk about "the redan hole" you mean #8 "Redan". According to the Google earth timeline the bunker you are referring to was removed sometime between 2005 and 2007. I will investigate the pothole situation. Thanks again for you obviously knowledgeable input. I swear that bunker has been put back in... After the flood.
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Post by jeffreyb on Dec 24, 2019 12:37:59 GMT -5
Z
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Post by jeffreyb on Dec 24, 2019 12:44:38 GMT -5
Uu on po
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Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
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Post by Deleted on Dec 24, 2019 13:59:35 GMT -5
No worries Joe, I was just yanking your chain . I assume when you talk about "the redan hole" you mean #8 "Redan". According to the Google earth timeline the bunker you are referring to was removed sometime between 2005 and 2007. I will investigate the pothole situation. Thanks again for you obviously knowledgeable input. I swear that bunker has been put back in... After the flood. If the flood was 2016, we don't have more recent imagery on Google Earth. Best it shows is 6/2016 I believe, unless you know of a more recent source.
Well, if you want your reason as to why the data might be 'inaccurate'...taken in December of 2016. The data most likely IS pretty accurate to how it was at that time, unless the course was already fixed up from the flood by then. QL2 with decent data parameters tends to be pretty good stuff, and while it can have a fair amount of artifacts it shouldn't be THIS inaccurate without good reason...such as extremely dense tree cover or, more likely in this case, a major flood.
Anyway don't worry about Joe yanking your chain at all. He's a MacRaynor guy through and through and expects perfection with his bunkers. We have talked about doing a Black Creek Club LiDAR collab (newer course in Raynor's style) and I told him I was going to leave the bunkers to him. He responded with something along the lines of 'well I wasn't going to let you work on them anyway.'
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Post by sandsaver01 on Dec 24, 2019 14:04:13 GMT -5
I swear that bunker has been put back in... After the flood. You are right again Joe, found a page from 2019 Redan that shows it plain as day. Never mind, I was wrong. That page actually shows a picture of berwick upon which #8 is based. A google view from 2019 link shows it has not changed since the flood.
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Post by joegolferg on Dec 24, 2019 15:34:37 GMT -5
I swear that bunker has been put back in... After the flood. You are right again Joe, found a page from 2019 Redan that shows it plain as day. Never mind, I was wrong. That page actually shows a picture of berwick upon which #8 is based. A google view from 2019 link shows it has not changed since the flood. Nah, that picture is definitely the Old White Redan. It's possible I'm wrong but I'm very confident that the bunker was restored in 2017.
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