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Post by nocturnal on Apr 9, 2015 13:39:33 GMT -5
I am not in the Euro or PGA tours. That being said, If I were I would gladly accept removing 1 or 2 of the aids to make it more balanced. IMO I think the scout cam shouldn't even be in the game. An overhead view of the hole should be enough.
If most people here are so against removing some of the aids (or even 1 of them) and there seems to be no way to level the field with course difficulty or consistent wind conditions for the top 2 tours...... maybe at some point there needs to be an elite league.
I feel for the really good players that may never have a legitimate chance to win. That's why I am hesitant to advance to the Euro/PGA level. I currently go into every tournament feeling that If I shoot my best I have a chance to win. You may see more and more people taking voluntary demotions just so they can compete.
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robdalky
Caddy
Posts: 42
TGCT Name: Rob Dahlquist
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Post by robdalky on Apr 9, 2015 14:28:06 GMT -5
As for unnatural low scores, this is going to happen regardless compared to real golf. Heck I can hit every fairway on Magnolia, and 17 out of 18 greens somewhere on the green. That is not going to happen in real golf for the pros even with no wind. It is impossible to make a video game just as hard as a real golf swing even at the pro level and keep the game feeling natural too. My thumb versus using my whole body in a swing is just going to be better. Agree on the wind, however if you disabled the scout camera you would find people hitting less fairways and greens, for sure.
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robdalky
Caddy
Posts: 42
TGCT Name: Rob Dahlquist
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Post by robdalky on Apr 9, 2015 14:33:04 GMT -5
I don't think we need to eliminate green grids, etc. to make them "naturally" tougher. Plus this is a video game and when I am standing on a real green I can see and feel the breaks and hill I might be standing on. When grid is turned off it turns into a guessing game and since it is a video game and you can't stand on the greens, reading breaks is not the same. No green grid = no fun, I wouldn't even participate. I can see your point here also... In my limited experience my ability to make putts and shoot low is directly correlated to the accuracy of my approach shot. I'm still a pretty sucky putter. Maybe the guys on the PGA are holing out 30 foot putts, but I doubt it, it's probably more like they are putting the ball to 6 ft every time. So it may be that disabling the scout cam or some such thing will increase the putting difficulty by putting the ball further from the hole.
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Post by nocturnal on Apr 9, 2015 14:52:43 GMT -5
As for unnatural low scores, this is going to happen regardless compared to real golf. Heck I can hit every fairway on Magnolia, and 17 out of 18 greens somewhere on the green. That is not going to happen in real golf for the pros even with no wind. It is impossible to make a video game just as hard as a real golf swing even at the pro level and keep the game feeling natural too. My thumb versus using my whole body in a swing is just going to be better. Agree on the wind, however if you disabled the scout camera you would find people hitting less fairways and greens, for sure.just like real golf.
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bob5453
Caddy
Posts: 24
TGCT Name: Bob Roberts
Tour: BCT
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Post by bob5453 on Apr 9, 2015 16:14:05 GMT -5
I am not in the Euro or PGA tours. That being said, If I were I would gladly accept removing 1 or 2 of the aids to make it more balanced. IMO I think the scout cam shouldn't even be in the game. An overhead view of the hole should be enough. If most people here are so against removing some of the aids (or even 1 of them) and there seems to be no way to level the field with course difficulty or consistent wind conditions for the top 2 tours...... maybe at some point there needs to be an elite league. I feel for the really good players that may never have a legitimate chance to win. That's why I am hesitant to advance to the Euro/PGA level. I currently go into every tournament feeling that If I shoot my best I have a chance to win. You may see more and more people taking voluntary demotions just so they can compete. I have the PGA card, I have no chance of winning a tourney and don't care if I win a tourney. I can only enter PGA or Euro tourneys, but I want to play a relaxed game with all the aids on and play courses that haven't been tricked up just to keep the best players from shooting -18 each round. I don't like to practice the course more than once to see if I am willing to play more rounds on it, I just want to participate for fun. I can shoot in the 50's every once in awhile, so I understand the game, but I am entering fewer tourneys as I just don't like playing the faster smaller greens and tougher pin positions lately as it is not as much fun for me. I guess it would be nice to have a tourney each week where everyone could enter, but the course wasn't tricked up. I would like it even better if it were 4 rounds on 4 different courses. I usually don't enter Dessert or Links theme tourneys, but if I only had to play 1 round on course, I would enter.
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Post by AFCTUJacko on Apr 9, 2015 16:37:58 GMT -5
Agree on the wind, however if you disabled the scout camera you would find people hitting less fairways and greens, for sure.just like real golf. If we disabled the scout cam the players with most time to practice would simply play so many practice rounds they wouldn't need it anyway and it would totally alienate those who don't have time to practice. There's also the issue of someone who owns the game on two platforms using one to scout the course whilst they play the course on the other. And tbh, watch any pro golf event and you will see they have an exact yardage to the front edge, pin and back of the green from almost every position on the fairway. What they don't have is an exact wind speed to work from, and taking that away should IMO be the first step if that is the route TGCTours decide to take. I'm all for the challenge, but scores will NEVER be realistic simply because it's a game and the mechanics of it will never be as complicated as a real golf swing
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Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
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Post by Deleted on Apr 9, 2015 16:44:46 GMT -5
just like real golf. If we disabled the scout cam the players with most time to practice would simply play so many practice rounds they wouldn't need it anyway and it would totally alienate those who don't have time to practice. There's also the issue of someone who owns the game on two platforms using one to scout the course whilst they play the course on the other. And tbh, watch any pro golf event and you will see they have an exact yardage to the front edge, pin and back of the green from almost every position on the fairway. What they don't have is an exact wind speed to work from, and taking that away should IMO be the first step if that is the route TGCTours decide to take. I'm all for the challenge, but scores will NEVER be realistic simply because it's a game and the mechanics of it will never be as complicated as a real golf swing Good points. But in RL you can feel the wind on your body, you can see it on the flag and grass and trees around. In the game, I hear the wind, but I really can not SEE how much its blowing, and what direction. Maybe my GPU isnt good enough, but seriously, I would have big trouble if the wind-meter was taken away...
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Post by MrSourNinja on Apr 9, 2015 16:54:51 GMT -5
If we disabled the scout cam the players with most time to practice would simply play so many practice rounds they wouldn't need it anyway and it would totally alienate those who don't have time to practice. There's also the issue of someone who owns the game on two platforms using one to scout the course whilst they play the course on the other. And tbh, watch any pro golf event and you will see they have an exact yardage to the front edge, pin and back of the green from almost every position on the fairway. What they don't have is an exact wind speed to work from, and taking that away should IMO be the first step if that is the route TGCTours decide to take. I'm all for the challenge, but scores will NEVER be realistic simply because it's a game and the mechanics of it will never be as complicated as a real golf swing Good points. But in RL you can feel the wind on your body, you can see it on the flag and grass and trees around. In the game, I hear the wind, but I really can not SEE how much its blowing, and what direction. Maybe my GPU isnt good enough, but seriously, I would have big trouble if the wind-meter was taken away... The wind meter stays just not the speed. That's where flags moving, trees moving and audio cues come in.
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Post by AFCTUJacko on Apr 9, 2015 16:55:11 GMT -5
If we disabled the scout cam the players with most time to practice would simply play so many practice rounds they wouldn't need it anyway and it would totally alienate those who don't have time to practice. There's also the issue of someone who owns the game on two platforms using one to scout the course whilst they play the course on the other. And tbh, watch any pro golf event and you will see they have an exact yardage to the front edge, pin and back of the green from almost every position on the fairway. What they don't have is an exact wind speed to work from, and taking that away should IMO be the first step if that is the route TGCTours decide to take. I'm all for the challenge, but scores will NEVER be realistic simply because it's a game and the mechanics of it will never be as complicated as a real golf swing Good points. But in RL you can feel the wind on your body, you can see it on the flag and grass and trees around. In the game, I hear the wind, but I really can not SEE how much its blowing, and what direction. Maybe my GPU isnt good enough, but seriously, I would have big trouble if the wind-meter was taken away... Yeah to be clear, i'm not saying there shouldn't be a wind meter at all. As you say when you step outside you can usually tell which direction it's blowing and roughly how strong, but knowing the exact number is impossible and that is the truly unrealistic aspect of the game for me atm.
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Post by edi_vedder on Apr 9, 2015 18:35:49 GMT -5
I don't think we need to eliminate green grids, etc. to make them "naturally" tougher. Plus this is a video game and when I am standing on a real green I can see and feel the breaks and hill I might be standing on. When grid is turned off it turns into a guessing game and since it is a video game and you can't stand on the greens, reading breaks is not the same. I couldn't have said it any better. In addition to that, no matter what aids you are turning off, the best players here would still be on top of the leaderboard. No doubt about that. It's just the scores that would draw near(er) to the scores we see in real life tournaments.
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jamesearl13
Weekend Golfer
Posts: 137
TGCT Name: James Moon
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Post by jamesearl13 on Apr 9, 2015 20:59:43 GMT -5
I for one don't care for the idea of removing the aids at all. You're not on the course to be able to rely on your senses. Trust me, I've played rounds with the aids turned off. Its just a silly guessing game.
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Post by MrSourNinja on Apr 9, 2015 22:11:41 GMT -5
I agree that most aids should be left. For a guy that is consistently very much a feel player in real golf it's just not possible to replicate the feel in the game. Hence most aids are needed.
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Post by mcbogga on Apr 11, 2015 8:59:20 GMT -5
I for one don't care for the idea of removing the aids at all. You're not on the course to be able to rely on your senses. Trust me, I've played rounds with the aids turned off. Its just a silly guessing game. Don't agree at all. The judgement and decisions ("silly guessing" in your terms) needed when scout cam and wind speed is off are very similar to playing in real life and adds another element of skill to the game. Green grids are a bit more tricky and the "not being able to use senses" argument is a bit more valid. But with practice you build up TGC senses. It is difficult for sure - but for me it is much more rewarding and brings putting to a realistic level. Look at the scores at the RGT masters - people are "silly guessing" themselves around Magnolia to the tune of 64s and 67s and the scoring overall for the top players is close to the real event. Field is still a bit too small to draw real conclusions about "realism" - but it is a very rewarding way to compete in TGC that does bring the feel of the game close to real tournament golf.
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jamesearl13
Weekend Golfer
Posts: 137
TGCT Name: James Moon
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Post by jamesearl13 on Apr 11, 2015 10:04:35 GMT -5
I for one don't care for the idea of removing the aids at all. You're not on the course to be able to rely on your senses. Trust me, I've played rounds with the aids turned off. Its just a silly guessing game. Don't agree at all. The judgement and decisions ("silly guessing" in your terms) needed when scout cam and wind speed is off are very similar to playing in real life and adds another element of skill to the game. Green grids are a bit more tricky and the "not being able to use senses" argument is a bit more valid. But with practice you build up TGC senses. It is difficult for sure - but for me it is much more rewarding and brings putting to a realistic level. Look at the scores at the RGT masters - people are "silly guessing" themselves around Magnolia to the tune of 64s and 67s and the scoring overall for the top players is close to the real event. Field is still a bit too small to draw real conclusions about "realism" - but it is a very rewarding way to compete in TGC that does bring the feel of the game close to real tournament golf. The most important thing that everyone is forgetting is that THIS IS A VIDEO GAME!!!!!!!! I know everyone wants this sense of realism, but are totally losing sight of what the Golf Club is, is very sophisticated golf simulator video game. You can't feel the wind to jusge it for yourself, nor are there ample visual cues to properly read the wind.
Furthermore, why do people want to change what the designers here put together? If they wanted us to play without aids, they would have made it that way. The tour has worked magnificently so far, and the idea of changing the established gaming environment mid-season is ludicrous. If sweeping changes like that are made, everyone would have to start over from scratch if you want to maintain the integrity of the competition.
As far as putting without green grids, I've had this discussion while playing live rounds with other players. there is no wheres near enough visual detail to do that, and I'll post here what our conclusion was to that endeavor. If anybody can do it proficiently, make a video of it post. I'll bet you can't!!! The only way would be to have played the course dozens upon dozens of times in order to have it memorized, and that in no way demonstrates having "TGC senses," just way too much time on your hands.
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Post by mcbogga on Apr 11, 2015 12:44:16 GMT -5
1. There are plenty of cues as for wind strength, both visual and audio even with wind meter off. It does add some realistic randomness. In real life you cannot "judge" the wind due to the simple fact that it's not the same where you are, 30 feet up and over the target where it matters the most. Playing in wind that moves shots is all playing percentages, and this video game without wind speed meter simulates that better than with the meter on. Similar argument can be made for the scout cam. Taking them away introduces a bit more randomness but also more skill elements around shot selection over four rounds.
2. Putting with grid off IS difficult. But saying that it is guessing and only way is to practice the course is just wrong. It's very much skill based, and proper real life green reading methods work well. There is a very true saying : "just because you can't do it does not mean it can't be done...".
Can be elaborate to read if a subtle break, and most video gamers will not find it fun playing with realistic sink percentages. It's not for everyone. I don't believe green grid will be taken away on TGC anytime soon, if ever. I am also not saying it's a more "correct" way to play the game - just one that produces more realistic results. You are free not to like it - but I take offense with the comment of "silly guessing" since that is far from the truth. If anything is silly it's having 80%+ sink rates from 10feet in a video game that calls itself a simulation...
3. The team behind TGCT have stated many times that the first season will see tweaks as they figure out proper set up. It's no "established" environment. They also stated that the vision is to provide a realistic rendition - and I am happy to see we are moving in that direction with proper tour set ups and hopefully some experimenting with aids off next. But the guys running this have shown that they are good and listens to the community, so there will be no drastic changes.
4. Don't make assumptions about how much time other people have or don't have to waste on video games. I may have more time to kill than I would like waiting for different modes of transportation traveling around the world which leads to too many posts on here, but for game time I get around 10-12 rounds in per week when I'm home, mostly TGCT and RGT.
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