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Post by Brighttail on Nov 16, 2018 21:39:47 GMT -5
And here comes the "mob mentality". How many people are actually holing out 4x a round when it counts here? Do we play with greens that are perfectly flat like in his video? No. Where is the form I need to fill out to get so I can send in my new swing for approval for? How many signatures from everyone do I need? Wait, there is a screen in place here that checks for deviation? Oh. I didn't realize that. Wait, I passed every one using the same controller since last June? But that doesn't matter because a video of someone can hole out off of a tee (not an angled fairway) into a perfectly flat (which we don't have on tour but seldomly) green four times. There is something wrong on HBs end, but the insinuating (I see you "naturally") here is already pathetic. If it changes I will adapt. Heck I'll go to PC again if I have to if they jack up the swing again on ps4. I would put up 100 people to take the same shot and I would bet real money that not even one of those people could hit that shot 4 times in a row even with no wind with a flat green. The game if it is being played right shouldn't ever allow that, especially considering that the game measures down to what, 20 decimal places? A person hitting it within .001 degree of every other shot so it doesn't skip right / left to miss the cup? Naw man, not buying it. People are good but we are talking a level of perfection that simply isn't natural. As old HB Anthony would say, no one is that good without something being off. I remember actually having Anthony set up a hole with zero wind and a flat green with a 7 iron. At 50 dpi which is about as perfect a straight line you could get it without having angle snapping on, there was always some deviance, a bounce, spin, something that would move the ball just enough to run by the cup. We'd get close, tap in birdie range but not holing it out consistently even when we stacked the deck in our favour. This is how Anthony proved to me, how precise the measurement of the game was.
Now this was prior to tempo and all that, so tempo and the variance on distance by missing a perfect centered blue hash on both the fore and downswing makes it even more remarkable. Turning on angle snapping we started holing them but still not perfect, so even with angle snapping on there were other variants in the game that slightly changed the trajectory.
In this case I think it is the game itself with the input it is getting and the output it is generating. IF the video shown was actually four in a row, it is every bit of a bug/oversight as allowing mouse users to pause the backswing to get a perfectly dialed in power percentage.
Forget for a moment whether there is an actual rule that covers this situation for a moment, is what you just saw something you can justify as okay for competition? Whatever or however that swing was done, can you honestly say, "Oh well everyone can do that same swing if they just practiced a bit." Can you say that everyone is on a level playing field and everyone has the ability to do what was shown? I'll save you the answer. It is no. Everyone has different equipment. Hell a mouse user can't do a 'flick' swing period, so at the very least, the very minimum, this 'swing' has a huge advantage over everything else out there.
We have all sorts of rules put into place to prevent obvious advantages, be it chipping on greens, angle snapping, no beginner clubs or what have you. I think this is about as obvious as a situation of an advantage as you can get.
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Post by itsmb8 on Nov 16, 2018 22:22:34 GMT -5
I play better without trying to short swing. For me to replicate what others "naturally" produce is a crap ton of hoops to jump through and leads to bad tempos. Maybe I need to put a bunch of glue on the top half of my analogue stick so it slows down before it can do a full swing or maybe screw a little plate 1/16" away from the edge of the analogue so I cant ever hit the top and straight shoot like everyone else. Im not calling them cheaters cause im sure there is a reason why the swing doesn't register but its a real big advantage. I hear a lot of people say that as long as your in the blue in the feedback your shot goes straight which is absolute BS theres about a 8-10 box variance on a 9I from left to right edge. Then add short game flops, pitches chipping all easy if it shortlines. Lofting is not a worry either when you cant really miss. try hitting a 5I that needs to land around 190 and get it close. We are definitely playing 2 different games and the only way a full line player has a chance versus a shortline is unfortunately pro clubs for now...
Maybe make the tours pro club mandatory instead of master until this is fixed. Wont be ideal but at least some of us have a chance.
I'm absolutely just stunned here. Basically what you have shown us is that the Master clubs we have all been told we must play with have a massive bug that gives a certain portion of the population not only an overwhelming advantage over the rest, it makes the game easier to play than TGC 1? No wonder people are going out and shooting -20 rounds. I'm also hearing that HB knows all this and has had pretty much nothing to say publicly about it. To make matters even worse, the API isn't really able to pick up that anything is really wrong all the time. I guess to make it fair we should allow mouse users to turn on angle snapping because it is effectively the same thing, regardless how we hit it, as long as it is within 10 degrees of center it will be a straight shot.
At this point I'm actually surprised that the tours aren't being put on hold because this is one of those 'bugs' that kills any semblance of fair competition. Should we have a rule that if your line doesn't go to the top it is an auto DQ if it happens more than 2 times in a round? Personally I don't give two S****S if people are saying, "But that is how I have always swung" the point is as the game currently is, the design of the game is flawed and is giving people a clear and definitive advantage over others. If all things were equal cept this advantage was for anyone using a mouse but no one else, how soon do you think new rules or the tour ground to a halt while it was being corrected? "Not my fault, I've used a mouse all during TGC, I shouldn't be penalized just cause you play with a controller!!"
I remember when I posted a video how mouse users could hit a 90% shot anytime they wanted and showed me doing it 3 times in a row. In the end HB knew about it, TGCT knew about it and nothing ever was done about it. So forgive me if I have any faith that HB will do jack about something like this. Seriously 4 shots, four hole outs is pretty much about as improbable as you are going to get if the game was operating anywhere like it should be. Anyone who is taking advantage of this knowingly should be ashamed of themselves and I would urge them to consider a different type of swing.
Jeezzzz.
Tbh with you, and Ive grown to really respect you over the number of years ive been on these forums, but there is absolutely NO CHANCE ill just sit back and play the way ive been playing. If I can get good at the short swing to where I can do it consistently, im sure as hell going to play that way. Im personally not going to sit back and play fair when others are doing it without even trying. Whats not fair is how some naturally do that and have that advantage because of the bug. If they're doing it and their scores are counting, then im going to do it too, and at the very least try to.
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Post by ijs1543 on Nov 16, 2018 23:05:44 GMT -5
Have to say they've absolutely ruined this franchise at the elite end of it.. Should have kept the basic swing from tgc 1 and just gave us all the features we have now on 2019. Did someone say tgc 1? Great game
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Post by Brighttail on Nov 16, 2018 23:08:03 GMT -5
Tbh with you, and Ive grown to really respect you over the number of years ive been on these forums, but there is absolutely NO CHANCE ill just sit back and play the way ive been playing. If I can get good at the short swing to where I can do it consistently, im sure as hell going to play that way. Im personally not going to sit back and play fair when others are doing it without even trying. Whats not fair is how some naturally do that and have that advantage because of the bug. If they're doing it and their scores are counting, then im going to do it too, and at the very least try to. I go back to the part of Sloan's post where he was saying that he is currently testing out shots that are still within the blue cone but severely angled, still flying straight. As he said in his second video, his should should have put in on the left edge of the green, that is what is happening with my shots when I have a swing angle there.
My point is if someone is using these style swings, after seeing all this evidence, knowing that it is giving them an unfair advantage over others and still continue to play it, that is where I draw the line. To me it should be fairly obvious that this type of advantage cannot be left to stand, if it is, then you might as well start a FLICKERs tour where they can all play on the same level and not against players who take full swings and don't share the obvious advantage.
I go back to my ability to hit 90% shots on TGC 1. I knew about it, HB and TGCT knew about it. No rule I couldn't use it but in the end I never used it because it was unethical. No other platform could replicate it. Between clubs? Do the shot and get close to the pin. Same thing with flops shots of 11 or so yards. I could dial those in and make 1/2 of them but I didn't because morally it was wrong. Sadly nothing was ever done about it. I'm hoping we don't find ourselves 5 months from here and nothing having been done about it. As for those who don't know about it? A simple email and a posting on the website would solve 99% of those people to get informed.
Once again, I'm not getting my hopes up. XBoX already has a big disadvantage over PS4/PC with the downswings and the mouse swing needs redoing. That is a lot of changes. Considering HB has never shown an affinity to care about how fair/honest people play (otherwise they'd have people autobanned in societies who have angle snapping on) I'm not expecting anything here. If something does happen it is only because enough people play using the PS4/controller to make it necessary.
For the record: 1. I miss smurf 2. I'm glad he isn't yelling at me.
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Post by Crazycanuck1985 on Nov 16, 2018 23:16:26 GMT -5
BREAKING The PGA will now be no longer be playing TGC2019 and asked to download and play their rounds using this game. Thanks for your cooperation.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 16, 2018 23:50:57 GMT -5
BREAKING The PGA will now be no longer be playing TGC2019 and asked to download and play their rounds using this game. Thanks for your cooperation. Does it come with a designer as those retaining walls look much better without having to treble them up? Not sure about the baked potatoes in the water though.
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Post by Airik3333 on Nov 16, 2018 23:52:14 GMT -5
Hell yeah.. Cut em open and slip some butter in em..
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Post by mrohde4 on Nov 17, 2018 0:59:50 GMT -5
┳┻| ┻┳| ┳┻| ┻┳| ┳┻| ┻┳| ┳┻| ┻┳| ┳┻| ┻┳| ┳┻| ┻┳| ┳┻| ┻┳| ┳┻| ┻┳| ┳┻| _ ┻┳| •.•) *Psst* ┳┻|⊂ノ I'd like to share about my rounds. ┻┳| __________________________________ -16 -13 -13 -14
Total: -56
Best finish in my career. TGC2 I mostly shuffled between PGA and Euro, never sniffed the Rocher. Played every week since 2015 using the chess piece method.
2019 is a different game. No doubt about it.
Are flickers getting an advantage? If every short-lined blue-coned perfect/perfect is dead straight with zero numerical deviation, even despite wonky angles, then yes. Three things:
A. They're playing the game as it was designed, so 'don't hate the player, hate the game.' The game has a flaw. If proven, it's undeniable. 2. The problem isn't widespread enough (yet) to warrant overhaul of the API and Fair Play rules. Time will tell. D. Could be wrong, but is there proof that any PS4 user has the ability to produce #flickgate shots?
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Post by Deleted on Nov 17, 2018 1:27:25 GMT -5
I hear a lot of people say that as long as your in the blue in the feedback your shot goes straight which is absolute BS theres about a 8-10 box variance on a 9I from left to right edge. . This isn't true. Firstly that contradicts the entire argument about the advantage of short swingers, namely (fadge/GWHope correct me if I'm wrong, I'm going by cusie's explanation in the HB forums which I think is very clear): - short swingers who are also straight get flagged by the API - short swingers who have more variance in their swings, but remain within the cone, don't get flagged by the API, however the ball still flies the same, and this, combined with the fact that they're less likely to miss the cone as the line is cut off before it can escape it, is the source of their significant advantage. They can get the same results with slightly wonkier swings, hence they don't get pulled by the API while other short swingers do. If the edge of your swing line gets close enough to nudge the edge of the cone, then yes it absolutely matters and you'll be offline, but if you've got visible pixels between the left-most edge of your line and the edge of the cone, the ball flies basically straight. This is a fundamental difference with the new game - in TGC2 the game 'drew' a best fit line and sent your ball in that direction even when you were in the cone. In the new game the cone acts as a buffer. Easy to prove by inference when you try beginner clubs, which don't have straighter lines like they had in TGC2, rather the cone is fatter so the ball flies straight even with a pretty wild swing provided you're within the cone. It's the same logic for all clubs, just the master cone is a lot thinner. Below is a video of 9 iron and 8 iron holeouts to prove the point. There's a tiny (half-box?) right wind, but my swings were about 90% between the centre and the edge of the cone - by your logic the balls should have gone a few boxes left but they didn't, they went in the hole.
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Post by Dave on Nov 17, 2018 1:44:13 GMT -5
Talk about first world problems... Jesus.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 17, 2018 1:55:53 GMT -5
Not many doing it could hit it that straight, and if they could, they’d be have scores removed... for over straightness. It’s the wonky ones that are gaining the most benefit. By the way, it’s nothing like angle snapping or any other mouse voodoo (you and that bloody mouse!) 😊 This can happen with stock equipment, no modification, no changes to settings. It’s how the game plays... officially there’s nothing wrong 🤔 Yep exactly, people seem to be missing the point about the real advantage here, because as we all know straighter hitters with a short swing will get pulled and anybody with a good swing who tries to recreate the short swing is going to be in FPP forum very quickly. Based on what I saw in the vid of cyclerob's round a while back where he got pulled, if sloaner actually swung like he did in the quad-ace vid it's pretty much a dead cert his round would be pulled. The advantage is only possible because someone can swing much less straight but still get the same result provided they're within the cone - which short swinging permits because it cuts off the line before it has a chance to breach the cone edge.
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Post by mrohde4 on Nov 17, 2018 2:02:10 GMT -5
Not many doing it could hit it that straight, and if they could, they’d be have scores removed... for over straightness. It’s the wonky ones that are gaining the most benefit. By the way, it’s nothing like angle snapping or any other mouse voodoo (you and that bloody mouse!) 😊 This can happen with stock equipment, no modification, no changes to settings. It’s how the game plays... officially there’s nothing wrong 🤔 Yep exactly, people seem to be missing the point about the real advantage here, because as we all know straighter hitters with a short swing will get pulled and anybody with a good swing who tries to recreate the short swing is going to be in FPP forum very quickly. Based on what I saw in the vid of cyclerob's round a while back where he got pulled, if sloaner actually swung like he did in the quad-ace vid it's pretty much a dead cert his round would be pulled. The advantage is only possible because someone can swing much less straight but still get the same result provided they're within the cone - which short swinging permits because it cuts off the line before it has a chance to breach the cone edge. This. Question becomes if/when/how the API fair play policy gets changed. More needs to happen before changes are even considered. There are three systems to consider and thousands of rounds. Hard to penalize a subset for playing the game as it’s designed.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 17, 2018 2:28:51 GMT -5
Yep exactly, people seem to be missing the point about the real advantage here, because as we all know straighter hitters with a short swing will get pulled and anybody with a good swing who tries to recreate the short swing is going to be in FPP forum very quickly. Based on what I saw in the vid of cyclerob's round a while back where he got pulled, if sloaner actually swung like he did in the quad-ace vid it's pretty much a dead cert his round would be pulled. The advantage is only possible because someone can swing much less straight but still get the same result provided they're within the cone - which short swinging permits because it cuts off the line before it has a chance to breach the cone edge. This. Question becomes if/when/how the API fair play policy gets changed. More needs to happen before changes are even considered. There are three systems to consider and thousands of rounds. Hard to penalize a subset for playing the game as it’s designed. Yeah we should wait and see if the upcoming 'mouse swing' change impacts short swinging, but if not I think at the very least the API needs to evolve to adapt to the changes in the new game, in particular to incorporate the new primacy of tempo. There are perfect tempo scripts out there and those players have a colossally unfair advantage, way beyond anything short swingers have. Fortunately from the vid I've seen of that script, their tempo arrows are in exactly the same spots every time so should be easy to catch since no human can time their swings with that ridiculous consistency. The fact is if you swing slightly offline on an approach shot, you might be facing a 15ft putt instead of a 10ft one, so birdie is often still on if more challenging - but if your tempo is slightly off, you're likely missing the green entirely, with deviation not only left/right as in TGC2 but also short/long, so you can kiss birdie goodbye.
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Post by CuseHokie on Nov 17, 2018 2:46:24 GMT -5
What needs to change in the fair play policy when only 2 of 145 PGA players are flagged and 6 across the entire TGCT last week? I'm not sure what type of drastic improvement you guys are expecting to get? It's less than %0.3 (that's less than 1 percent) being flagged. Unless you guys are arguing for more stringent metrics so that we flag more people - then my bad for mis-reading. The consensus of a vocal minority (me included) is that 2019 introduced a short swing that puts the player at a distinct advantage. If the goal is to have fair play, then this likely presents a problem because not everyone can execute the swing and it’s not within the spirit of a true golf swing. Those of us that complete a full swing are simply providing more data to hit an errant shot and thus put at a disadvantage. If tgctours actually acknowledges that the short swing is an unfair advantage as well (this hasn’t happened yet), then this presents an even greater problem because the current API has no way of detecting the short swing in its current form. Several elite players have gone and rigged controllers to allow themselves to short swing (as they naturally full swing) and have posted dramatically improved results - proving the advantage. Your stats for those who have been flagged are somewhat irrelevant because it’s not identifying the greater problem. Many are still short swinging but have enough deviation for the current API and thus never get flagged. Back to bed.
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Post by fadgewacker on Nov 17, 2018 3:08:12 GMT -5
Not many doing it could hit it that straight, and if they could, they’d be have scores removed... for over straightness. It’s the wonky ones that are gaining the most benefit. By the way, it’s nothing like angle snapping or any other mouse voodoo (you and that bloody mouse!) 😊 This can happen with stock equipment, no modification, no changes to settings. It’s how the game plays... officially there’s nothing wrong 🤔 Yep exactly, people seem to be missing the point about the real advantage here, because as we all know straighter hitters with a short swing will get pulled and anybody with a good swing who tries to recreate the short swing is going to be in FPP forum very quickly. Based on what I saw in the vid of cyclerob's round a while back where he got pulled, if sloaner actually swung like he did in the quad-ace vid it's pretty much a dead cert his round would be pulled. The advantage is only possible because someone can swing much less straight but still get the same result provided they're within the cone - which short swinging permits because it cuts off the line before it has a chance to breach the cone edge. Just to clarify for anyone thinking otherwise: If there is variation (left / right) in your short swing, then there is still variation in the result in the game. Anything in the cone isn’t auto straight, but it’s much straighter than if an errant swing were to be completed, that’s your major problem. The comment above saying more errant swings get the same result as a straight one isn’t technically true. A straight shot will always be better, but a short swing with deviation will drift off line less than it should. I’d like to see a bit more of how Sloaner actually made that video, just for the record. Was it with a DS4? Did he mod his controller, or was it standard? He would definitely be pulled for that over the course of a PGA round.
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