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Post by SmilingGoats on Jul 24, 2017 22:10:58 GMT -5
Guys...let's stay on topic. We don't need to discuss penalties in this thread. We don't need to branch into why people might cheat, etc. This isn't about any of that.
What we want to determine is whether the community wants us to just filter our obvious cheaters or do we also want to filter out players with an input device advantage? That's really what this exercise is about. 95% of all players are on the same playing field. But then there are the outliers I've posted in the first thread. Some of these are cheaters but many are not. Many are just players that appear to have an input device advantage. Question is...what does the community want? And where do we draw the lines?
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Post by nevadaballin on Jul 24, 2017 22:13:05 GMT -5
Guys...let's stay on topic. We don't need to discuss penalties in this thread. We don't need to branch into why people might cheat, etc. This isn't about any of that. What we want to determine is whether the community wants us to just filter our obvious cheaters or do we also want to filter out players with an input device advantage? That's really what this exercise is about. 95% of all players are on the same playing field. But then there are the outliers I've posted in the first thread. Some of these are cheaters but many are not. Many are just players that appear to have an input device advantage. Question is...what does the community want? And where do we draw the lines? Can you tell us what input device was used with each example?
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Post by Deleted on Jul 24, 2017 22:13:28 GMT -5
For me it's simple. The only player who should be eliminated should be the one who is dead center every time. My thinking is, if you're going to cheat, why would you have shots that are not dead center. Any shot deviating from center is going to be errant to some degree, which means they can't be certain where the ball is actually going to go.
I will say this much. I'd love to know what my chart looks like.
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Post by ATLdust on Jul 24, 2017 22:14:21 GMT -5
Guys...let's stay on topic. We don't need to discuss penalties in this thread. We don't need to branch into why people might cheat, etc. This isn't about any of that. What we want to determine is whether the community wants us to just filter our obvious cheaters or do we also want to filter out players with an input device advantage? That's really what this exercise is about. 95% of all players are on the same playing field. But then there are the outliers I've posted in the first thread. Some of these are cheaters but many are not. Many are just players that appear to have an input device advantage. Question is...what does the community want? And where do we draw the lines? Sorry about that. Didn't mean to swerve outside the lines. Stream of consciousness I suppose. 😀
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Post by SmilingGoats on Jul 24, 2017 22:15:58 GMT -5
Can you tell us what input device was used with each example? No because that shouldn't matter.
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Post by coruler2 on Jul 24, 2017 22:16:21 GMT -5
I don't like I or J either. I think controlling the variance of the swing to be extra tight is just as bad as perfect straight. Player J is a prime example...the deviation of the ball in the game would be minor.
There's a big difference between missing the pin 1ft to the side vs 14ft
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Post by Brighttail on Jul 24, 2017 22:18:24 GMT -5
Based on this being one round it is hard to see any trends developing over many rounds.
Myself, I tend to push to the right a bit, i think one of my tournies i was at 76% to the right, the other 24 to the left. To me this is a natural part of the game. If you are ignoring shots under 75-100s as often those can be half swings or putts of 2 feet, this is where i would start with the actual data. Are these full 18 holes including putts, chips? Here are my thoughts:
Player A- too straight no devaiation. he may have angle snapping on but not know about it. Player B - He is most likely useing a very low DPI, once again, does he know what he is doing? He needs to raise DPI or adjust settings. Player C - Is someone we need more information. It is possible he is running a script. This is one of those I might pull up his game to see if he is hitting to the left, is he aiming to the right to compensate and ends up perfect? more info needed Player D - More info needed. Is this his natural pull? Is it software related. I would have a conversation with him. Try and have him play with a different setting to see if he is still pulling by those exact margins. Player E - Hitting a lot of staright shots all on the same side. This to me seems with the result of such near perfect, the DPI may be too low. Player F - Seems the best example of shots everywhere, mostly good but they run the gambit. Looks good, so long as those 4 perfect shots are like 2 foot putts or less. Player G - Shooting a bit too straight having a shot, any shot be at .0007 is way to straight. Player H - Player H seems once again shooting way too staight with all those decimal as 0. PLayer I - is WAAAAAY too straight, period. Either very low DPI, a suspect controller. Player J- Seems like has a lower DPI and is using shots like chips/ putts to be way off where it help skew the data to try to stay under the radar.
I'm thinking .01 deviation is probably the lowest a person should be able to shoot legitimately when you look at an average over many rounds. By not taking putting into consideration, someone can't pad their numbers by wildly missing the cone on a 3 foot putt. Chips/pitches and LW clubs have the littlest deviation and are easy to hit. If some of the near perfect/absolute perfect come from these shots, I'm good with that.
Further more those players that are like Player F...if you go into their round and see that the drives are at .02 but their approach shots are mostly at .007, you know that they are manipulating settings on a per shot bases.
Overall you have given a snap shot. One round is not enough for me to consider a ban on any player other than Player A right off, and even then it may be a simple fact they have angle snapping on and aren't aware of it. I don't believe in a right off ban for any player except maybe Player A (if we explain angle snapping in the rules and they SHOULD knwo about it) and a player changing their DPI to be easier for critical shots. The rest may be the time that they played TGC 1 with these settings and were fine but are no longer fine. I would DQ them for the event and give them support to help fix them. How many warnings, how receptive they are and how much they change will be up to the Admin to figure out the eventual decision.
If you are only counting data from shots over 75 yards, then I would not say a single 'near perfect shot' or two isn't an automatic DQ. Everyone can hit a great shot, even a couple one. They key is the patterns. If you can establish intent that someone is actively trying to mess with settings to mask their play, then I think that is the point where you are talking suspensions.
As we know there are mice/controllers that simply shoot straighter than others with no way to loosen the settings. Since you can't tell what device they are using, how will a ban be enforced?
Finally you have to take the law of averages into consideration. On every platform you will have an average of the platorm, lets say .018-.020. You will have people far above that in the .030 range and others in the .010 range. So you don't want to be punishing someone who by all outward glances happen to shoot it straighter than others, and everything else checks out. Honestly I find following a ghost is one of the best ways to see how a person plays. You can pull up the ghost, play one shot and watch them play back 18 holes and look at their white line. Even without the API you can tell patterns here for many of the above situation.
That is what I suggest at this point, more data and putting a policy out. Once there is an official police, then people are more willing to consider their swing may be off and that something may need to be done.
What I would be interested is how many players are we talking about that are shooting below the .01 limit? We talking 2? 12, 30, 50, 100, 300, 500?
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Post by nevadaballin on Jul 24, 2017 22:20:59 GMT -5
Can you tell us what input device was used with each example? No because that shouldn't matter. It shouldn't but in the same token it does if we're being asked what we think about filtering out players with an input device advantage. That information would help. Just for clarification, i was asking about the device, not the player's name.
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Post by Brighttail on Jul 24, 2017 22:22:41 GMT -5
Guys...let's stay on topic. We don't need to discuss penalties in this thread. We don't need to branch into why people might cheat, etc. This isn't about any of that. What we want to determine is whether the community wants us to just filter our obvious cheaters or do we also want to filter out players with an input device advantage? That's really what this exercise is about. 95% of all players are on the same playing field. But then there are the outliers I've posted in the first thread. Some of these are cheaters but many are not. Many are just players that appear to have an input device advantage. Question is...what does the community want? And where do we draw the lines? Can you tell us what input device was used with each example? I'm not sure that it matters. If a device is out of compliance that is all that matters, it must be corrected. If the admins put suggestions up for all to see on how to correct the issue, that should be good enough.
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Post by timeracer on Jul 24, 2017 22:24:18 GMT -5
I think there are a lot of people out there unknowingly playing with a pad that might be considered cheating. So, on the penalty aspect I would make them pretty harsh. But, I would have a initial grace period where the player is just warned rather than publicly outed as a cheater and DQ'd and banned. I think there were probably many that played with them all along but maybe weren't good enough to ever draw any attention or have their API checked. These players IMO aren't even really cheating in the truest sense of the word. They've bought officially licensed products that at least in terms of the console manufacturers are fully legal to play on any game. Then on PC with Logitech pads. I'm sure many would buy them simply because of reputation of quality products from them never expecting it could be labeled cheating to use one.
On the data. It's very interesting to see some of it. The fact that what appears as a dead straight line onscreen isn't necessarily a zero deviation shot in the API is both comforting and troubling at the same time. Comforting in that it should be easy to spot the blatant cheats. But troubling in how do you determine the tolerance level for what's allowed to be repeated. Played six holes tonight with loose old launch version Xbox one controller. Hit 3 shots in those six holes that appeared as dead straight lines onscreen. Better and newer controller and actually playing more than a few holes each week I would suspect I could hit those kinds of marks with greater frequency. But how much is too much? That's going to be a tough call..
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Post by ATLdust on Jul 24, 2017 22:27:22 GMT -5
Based on this being one round it is hard to see any trends developing over many rounds. Myself, I tend to push to the right a bit, i think one of my tournies i was at 76% to the right, the other 24 to the left. To me this is a natural part of the game. If you are ignoring shots under 75-100s as often those can be half swings or putts of 2 feet, this is where i would start with the actual data. Here are my thoughts: Player A- too straight no devaiation. he may have angle snapping on but not know about it. Player B - He is most likely useing a very low DPI, once again, does he know what he is doing? He needs to raise DPI or adjust settings. Player C - Is someone we need more information. It is possible he is running a script. This is one of those I might pull up his game to see if he is hitting to the left, is he aiming to the right to compensate and ends up perfect? more info needed Player D - More info needed. Is this his natural pull? Is it software related. I would have a conversation with him. Try and have him play with a different setting to see if he is still pulling by those exact margins. Player E - Hitting a lot of staright shots all on the same side. This to me seems with the result of such near perfect, the DPI may be too low. Player F - Seems the best example of shots everywhere, mostly good but they run the gambit. Looks good. Player G - Shooting a bit too straight having a shot, any shot be at .0007 is way to straight. Player H - Player H seems once again shooting way too staight with all those decimal as 0. I'm thinking .01 deviation is probably the lowest a person should be able to shoot legitimately when you look at an average over many rounds. By not taking putting into consideration, someone can't pad their numbers by wildly missing the cone on a 3 foot putt. Chips/pitches and LW clubs have the littlest deviation and are easy to hit. If some of the near perfect/absolute perfect come from these shots, I'm good with that. Further more those players that are like Player F...if you go into their round and see that the drives are at .02 but their approach shots are mostly at .007, you know that they are manipulating settings on a per shot bases. Overall you have given a snap shot. One round is not enough for me to consider a ban on any player other than Player A right off, and even then it may be a simple fact they have angle snapping on and aren't aware of it. I don't believe in a right off ban for any player except maybe Player A (if we explain angle snapping in the rules and they SHOULD knwo about it) and a player changing their DPI to be easier for critical shots. The rest may be the time that they played TGC 1 with these settings and were fine but are no longer fine. I would DQ them for the event and give them support to help fix them. How many warnings, how receptive they are and how much they change will be up to the Admin to figure out the eventual decision. If you are only counting data from shots over 75 yards, then I would not say a single 'near perfect shot' or two isn't an automatic DQ. Everyone can hit a great shot, even a couple one. They key is the patterns. If you can establish intent that someone is actively trying to mess with settings to mask their play, then I think that is the point where you are talking suspensions. As we know there are mice/controllers that simply shoot straighter than others with no way to loosen the settings. Since you can't tell what device they are using, how will a ban be enforced? Finally you have to take the law of averages into consideration. On every platform you will have an average of the platorm, lets say .018-.020. You will have people far above that in the .030 range and others in the .010 range. So you don't want to be punishing someone who by all outward glances happen to shoot it straighter than others, and everything else checks out. Honestly I find following a ghost is one of the best ways to see how a person plays. You can pull up the ghost, play one shot and watch them play back 18 holes and look at their white line. Even without the API you can tell patterns here for many of the above situation. That is what I suggest at this point, more data and putting a policy out. Once there is an official police, then people are more willing to consider their swing may be off and that something may need to be done. What I would be interested is how many players are we talking about that are shooting below the .01 limit? We talking 2? 12, 30, 50, 100, 300, 500? Well this pretty much sums it up right here lol. Well written and thought out. I agree the decision would have to be after a pattern of the same shows up on multiple rounds. I'm not sure how all this works but couldn't someone not use a cheating device or whatever for a round or two but then use it to get back into the game and climb the leaderboard in later rounds not really raising red flags? Sorry if it's a stupid question I just don't really know the ends and outs of all this crap
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Post by Deleted on Jul 24, 2017 22:35:50 GMT -5
My opinion on penalties is this... The intention to cheat the system and disrespect those that play in this community is worse than the act itself. Providing the evidence is undeniable I believe the penalties should be SEVERE to ensure compliance. I would suggest a 3 month (YES 3 month) ban for anyone found cheating. Make the penalty extreme and then dare people to break the rules. "It's difficult to prove intent." -Alex Rodriguez I agree that severity is a good way to go, but other than the player admitting it or through surveillance cameras, doesn't everyone just deny deny deny? Clear cases throw the book at them, but those charts prove the world is a gray place. I did say if it is undeniable the. We need to draw a line in the sand
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Post by hammo24983 on Jul 24, 2017 22:41:57 GMT -5
Maybe a poll with all the suggested ideas from this data would Give you guys the information You want from us?
Personally, i don't like the idea of people having equipment that makes the game significantly easier. You should be playing the game as it was designed which only appears to be possible with stock controllers. I believe you have the data to easily identify those that are clearly using performance enhancing equipment.
PM those you think are using such controllers and make them aware of it. If they continue to use it, then they get a first warning. 2 strikes and you are out!!
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Post by itsmb8 on Jul 24, 2017 22:43:57 GMT -5
Thanks for the information Jeff, very insightful. From my personal opinion, A, C, and D look to be cheating (obviously A). The rest should be placed on alert, aside from F which looks to be fine. I also think that active members of the tour involved should be given a notice about an infraction (aside from the member of interest). And of course, any member that publicly states these incidents should be given a moderately severe penalty as well. Just a couple of follow up questions so that people get an understanding of the kind of feedback we want. 1) You say that the rest should get a warning. Should we allow these rounds to stand? Should we dq the one round with the warning? What if the rounds continue to look like this? 2) You say Player F is fine...he had 4 shots with no deviation at all whereas player H only had 3. Why do you find Player F to be more acceptable? 1) I think that to be consistent with the natural "innocent until proven guilty" law, that rounds should stand, but guilty parties be given a hefty penalty of a ban of numerous months, a hefty decrease in money earned (kind of like a "fine") and possibly an asterisk or some sort of label on display as "past cheater." 2) I only find player F to be more acceptable because of the greater amount of dispersion. I think any member with more than 1-2 "inside red zone" shots per round should be placed on warning, and 4-5 "inside orange zone" shots per round. One possible solution i can think of is making a list of acceptable controllers and acceptable DPI settings.
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Post by Brighttail on Jul 24, 2017 22:44:44 GMT -5
Many of these people need to educated first. They know there is a straight shooting rule in effect but most probably have no idea they are breaking a future rule. Education of what the problem is and education for how to fix the issue. If at any time intent to break the rules is established then that is a deal breaker for me. People should be able to be told there is an issue, given ways to fix it, given the opportunity to fix it and if they do, great...maybe they loose a few rounds played in a tournament. Even if the solution is get a new device, that is a solution. So i say current DQ for the week they are playing if they aren't conforming to the rules. Give them ideas how to fix it. Say come back in a tournament and play again when ready. Check em again. If no improovement is made, suspension. If they are almost closer but still illegal, DQ from that event, try again. As long as they are trying, I'm good with just a DQ for the week. Once they are legal by a reasonable margin (ie four rounds played in a tournament with good averages), they can play next week. If they suddenly become illegal or look that they are barely skirting the legal line, suspended again. Bottom line we gotta give them a chance to understand and get a feel to what it feels like to be compliant, but not so many chances that it will eat up Admins and where the Admins are playing babysitter. Honestly a lot of this should be simply, courteous common sense. Rounds that are shot with illegal straight shots, should be removed... just like a person shooting a round with illegal clubs should be penalized. They lose the tourney but aren't banned from the PGA. Oh and hammo24983, if the game wasn't designed to be played with mice, there would be no such thing as mouse sensitivity, nor would there be steam controller settings that aren't greyed out when playing.
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