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Post by Brighttail on Nov 9, 2016 17:06:22 GMT -5
I'm willing to give him a shot.
My next question is what happens with Hillary? Will Obama pardon her? If so, is Obama going to pardon Huma, Cheryl, Kennedy, Tapper, Podesta, Mook and all the others who broke the laws as well?
I'm 50/50 on this. Part of me thinks Obama is done with the Clintons. He did everything he could to keep her out of jail and campaign for her and she still couldn't overcome. Any debt to her has been filled and if he pardoned her, not only would that be a blight on his legacy, there is nothing really that Bill/Hillary could give him cause they are done in political life. He never wanted Hillary and he could salvage his legacy by at least refusing to pardon her so the Dems could blame the entire election on her and leave her to her own fate. On the other hand there will be some significant pressure put on him by some to pardon him, but like I said, he would have to pardon many as it wouldn't be fair if Hillary got a pass, maybe Hillary, Bill & Chelsea get a pardon, but no one else would. That would be the equivalent of showing Hillary is above the law and everyone else can be thrown under the bus.
On the other hand I'm not so certain that Rudy Guliani and Trump would automatically try to reopen the case of her emails. If they do so, they shine a light on the FBI by saying, "We don't trust their decision." So any indictment that would come as a result would be tainted as a partisan witch hunt. However, if Rudy lets the email server go, but lets the FBI go forward on the Clinton Foundation AND gives the FBI subpoena power as well as grand jury power, I feel that is fair game. If the FBI finds NEW stuff on the Email server in all that investigation, then they could reopen it, but I think by accepting the FBI's recommendation on the email server, Trump would give credibility to the FBI's decision. Thus if anything comes of the Foundation, it is the credible FBI making that determination, not a partisan FBI who was forced to reopen a case a third time. They could also send the IRS after the Foundation with massive audits.
Don't get me wrong, I hope she and Bill are indicted on something and the Foundation is exposed as a fraud, but we are living in a political world. Reopening a case for a third time is political suicide. Letting an investigation that is currently ongoing is due diligence.
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Post by AFCTUJacko on Nov 9, 2016 17:22:46 GMT -5
My next question is what happens with Hillary? If Trump wastes any more time, energy or money going after Clinton as opposed to doing his job it will merely confirm what a tiny little man he is. He won't though. In reality he has nothing against her (he probably even quite likes her) - he only said 95% of the things he did in order to get elected - mission accomplished. ps - you seem utterly obsessed with the Clintons BT - my only surprise is that you haven't somehow linked them to putting glitches  |
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Post by karma4u on Nov 9, 2016 17:31:49 GMT -5
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Post by AFCTUJacko on Nov 9, 2016 17:34:10 GMT -5
outrageous spending  ? We just had 8 years with a President that racked up more debt than all the previous Presidents combined... Obama was a spending machine and we have nothing to show for it.. It's like when you run up your credit cards to the max and then you can't remember what you spent the money on.. That is Obama... Bailing out banks and whole industries, and maintaining welfare/health/education spending after a global financial crisis which seriously dents your tax revenues...... is expensive business. Obama inherited a horrible situation. The national debt was going to spiral regardless of who was in the White House. It's been the same story almost everywhere (including here in the UK) I assume the "outrageous spending" nevada refers to are the planned massive corporate tax cuts - with no way of paying for them. The debt clock is going to keep on ticking over..... |
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Post by Deleted on Nov 9, 2016 17:42:29 GMT -5
My next question is what happens with Hillary? If Trump wastes any more time, energy or money going after Clinton as opposed to doing his job it will merely confirm what a tiny little man he is. He won't though. In reality he has nothing against her (he probably even quite likes her) - he only said 95% of the things he did in order to get elected - mission accomplished. ps - you seem utterly obsessed with the Clintons BT - my only surprise is that you haven't somehow linked them to putting glitches Bill's cigar is in the "hole" and thus preventing the balls to drop, mystery solved. |
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Post by Brighttail on Nov 9, 2016 18:44:42 GMT -5
My next question is what happens with Hillary? If Trump wastes any more time, energy or money going after Clinton as opposed to doing his job it will merely confirm what a tiny little man he is. He won't though. In reality he has nothing against her (he probably even quite likes her) - he only said 95% of the things he did in order to get elected - mission accomplished. ps - you seem utterly obsessed with the Clintons BT - my only surprise is that you haven't somehow linked them to putting glitches I make no secret on my absolutely disgust for Hillary and Bill. They are elitists that believe the law doesn't apply to them, they care of no one but themselves, they treat others like garbage, they are compulsive liars and two of the most dishonest people in the history of politics. That being said, Trump doesn't need to 'go after' Hillary. He just needs to sit back and let the FBI do their jobs. He should let them continue to investigate him and if the FBI wants to continue going after the Foundation, let them do that as well, unhindered. That is what is supposed to happen. The Executive Branch should not get involved with investigations of the FBI. Obama's DoJ interfered with Fast n Furious, the IRS and Hillary's email investigations. I think that says enough. Finally many in his base voted for him because he promised to go after her. He should but on the Foundation, not the emails. |
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Post by nevadaballin on Nov 9, 2016 20:34:23 GMT -5
outrageous spending ? We just had 8 years with a President that racked up more debt than all the previous Presidents combined... Obama was a spending machine and we have nothing to show for it.. It's like when you run up your credit cards to the max and then you can't remember what you spent the money on.. That is Obama... I cannot put all of that on Obama. Considering what this country was like when he stepped in, we are in WAY better shape than we were then. Massive recession, wars in the middle east (we should have never been in) draining our resources, a GOP Congress membership who's "top priority" per Mitch McConnell was to get him out of office from day 1 instead of working with him, etc, etc. The pile of sht from the previous administration left on the White House lawn when he came in was crazy. If anyone expected him to fix everything that was wrong with this country when he came in then their expectations were way too high. I think Obama did a hell of a job with what he had to work with. Wasn't perfect but he got us back on track to be improving instead continuing down the drain. |
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Post by nevadaballin on Nov 9, 2016 20:35:43 GMT -5
I'm willing to give him a shot. My next question is what happens with Hillary? Will Obama pardon her? If so, is Obama going to pardon Huma, Cheryl, Kennedy, Tapper, Podesta, Mook and all the others who broke the laws as well? I'm 50/50 on this. Part of me thinks Obama is done with the Clintons. He did everything he could to keep her out of jail and campaign for her and she still couldn't overcome. Any debt to her has been filled and if he pardoned her, not only would that be a blight on his legacy, there is nothing really that Bill/Hillary could give him cause they are done in political life. He never wanted Hillary and he could salvage his legacy by at least refusing to pardon her so the Dems could blame the entire election on her and leave her to her own fate. On the other hand there will be some significant pressure put on him by some to pardon him, but like I said, he would have to pardon many as it wouldn't be fair if Hillary got a pass, maybe Hillary, Bill & Chelsea get a pardon, but no one else would. That would be the equivalent of showing Hillary is above the law and everyone else can be thrown under the bus. On the other hand I'm not so certain that Rudy Guliani and Trump would automatically try to reopen the case of her emails. If they do so, they shine a light on the FBI by saying, "We don't trust their decision." So any indictment that would come as a result would be tainted as a partisan witch hunt. However, if Rudy lets the email server go, but lets the FBI go forward on the Clinton Foundation AND gives the FBI subpoena power as well as grand jury power, I feel that is fair game. If the FBI finds NEW stuff on the Email server in all that investigation, then they could reopen it, but I think by accepting the FBI's recommendation on the email server, Trump would give credibility to the FBI's decision. Thus if anything comes of the Foundation, it is the credible FBI making that determination, not a partisan FBI who was forced to reopen a case a third time. They could also send the IRS after the Foundation with massive audits. Don't get me wrong, I hope she and Bill are indicted on something and the Foundation is exposed as a fraud, but we are living in a political world. Reopening a case for a third time is political suicide. Letting an investigation that is currently ongoing is due diligence. Obama has nothing to pardon her for, she hasn't been charged and convicted of anything. He'll be long out of office before anything like that happens. |
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Post by Deleted on Nov 9, 2016 20:36:06 GMT -5
The national debt was $10.6T 1/20/09 and is it nearing $20T now. Not quite doubled it.
In fact, going back to 1981, here is the debt total in January of each term. You will see that Reagan nearly tripled it in 8 years. HW Bush added 50% (a little more) to it in 4 years. Clinton added 35% to it in 8 years. W Bush and Obama both nearly, but not quite, doubled it.
The debt going up, up, up happens to all Presidents in modern times.
1/81 .934T
1/89 2.698T
1/93 4.167T
1/01 5.636T
1/09 10.569T
10/16 19.770T
Not mired in a recession to depression is part of what I like to think we have to show for it. The rest are wars, etc. then to keep up the industrial military complex, and then all the other spending. My personal favorite junk spending is the hundreds of billions put into the F-35 that still has yet to prove much, if any air superiority.
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Post by Brighttail on Nov 9, 2016 21:47:57 GMT -5
Obama has nothing to pardon her for, she hasn't been charged and convicted of anything. He'll be long out of office before anything like that happens. You are missing the big picture. If he doesn't pardon her now, then when Trump gets in he could easily charge her with a slew of things and she would have no where to run or hide. She wouldn't have a Democrat Department of Justice and Attorney General or a President that could pardon her. Trump even ran on the fact that when he got in he would re-open the investigation on her with HIS Attorney General. So if Obama doesn't pardon her, she absolutely could end up in jail. And yes, Obama could pardon her without ever being charged against future potential indictments. This is what Ford did with Nixon. Nixon's articles of Impeachment were never finalized, he resigned before they were voted on in the House, nor had he been criminally yet. Ford pardoned him so he would never be charged with any crimes associated with his Presidency. |
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Post by Brighttail on Nov 9, 2016 21:55:27 GMT -5
Obama could have reduced the deficit and have a surplus now. He CHOSE not to. The reason is the only way you can get a surplus is to either reduce spending or reduce services, he did neither and in fact did the opposite. He got help from a law that was passed by Congress early in his first term that said if the Congress didn't agree to new spending, the budget for things like Defense would automatically be slashed. The GoP and Dems (gang of 8) authored that law. Obama just signed off on it, he had nothing to do with it otherwise. That cut the deficit nearly in half.
So no Obama really didn't do much. What has happened is that the economy has righted itself despite him, and because of his new spending and lack of governmental cuts, the economy has grown at the slowest rate it has in 30 years, while every other country, Canada, Germany, UK has at least met the rate of inflation. US is half that.
Obama has only two things going for him. 1. He got Bin Ladin 2. Obamacare. No one can take away Bin Ladin. Obamacare and all his other executive orders is about to be overturned and his legacy is going to take a major hit. He has no one to blame but himself. He had both the House and the Senate his first two years. Republicans were begging to be involved and he met with them, infamously said, "Elections have consequences" and promptly locked them out of any negotiations on any bills for two years. After he lost the House 2 years in to his first term, the GoP repaid his kindness with a big FU and halted everything he tried to put out.
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Post by nevadaballin on Nov 9, 2016 22:12:10 GMT -5
Obama has nothing to pardon her for, she hasn't been charged and convicted of anything. He'll be long out of office before anything like that happens. You are missing the big picture. If he doesn't pardon her now, then when Trump gets in he could easily charge her with a slew of things and she would have no where to run or hide. She wouldn't have a Democrat Department of Justice and Attorney General or a President that could pardon her. Trump even ran on the fact that when he got in he would re-open the investigation on her with HIS Attorney General. So if Obama doesn't pardon her, she absolutely could end up in jail. And yes, Obama could pardon her without ever being charged against future potential indictments. This is what Ford did with Nixon. Nixon's articles of Impeachment were never finalized, he resigned before they were voted on in the House, nor had he been criminally yet. Ford pardoned him so he would never be charged with any crimes associated with his Presidency. Yea but Nixon was a POTUS although I could see Obama possibly doing that her and using that as precedent. Keep in mind, it isn't up to Trump to prosecute her. He isn't King of America. He may appoint the Pilsbury dough boy Christie to lead the Justice Dept but if Comey is correct and there isn't enough to convict her, then Trump starts out with pie on the face and a huge disappointment to his cult. Nixon segue to Wikileaks... i have found it interesting that only DNC emails were hacked and released. More interesting that Giuliani is involved in a cyber security company and has always hinted at upcoming things against Clinton. I just smell a modern-day Watergate with all of this. |
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Post by mcbogga on Nov 9, 2016 22:44:47 GMT -5
Obama could have reduced the deficit and have a surplus now. He CHOSE not to. The reason is the only way you can get a surplus is to either reduce spending or reduce services, he did neither and in fact did the opposite. He got help from a law that was passed by Congress early in his first term that said if the Congress didn't agree to new spending, the budget for things like Defense would automatically be slashed. The GoP and Dems (gang of 8) authored that law. Obama just signed off on it, he had nothing to do with it otherwise. That cut the deficit nearly in half. So no Obama really didn't do much. What has happened is that the economy has righted itself despite him, and because of his new spending and lack of governmental cuts, the economy has grown at the slowest rate it has in 30 years, while every other country, Canada, Germany, UK has at least met the rate of inflation. US is half that. Obama has only two things going for him. 1. He got Bin Ladin 2. Obamacare. No one can take away Bin Ladin. Obamacare and all his other executive orders is about to be overturned and his legacy is going to take a major hit. He has no one to blame but himself. He had both the House and the Senate his first two years. Republicans were begging to be involved and he met with them, infamously said, "Elections have consequences" and promptly locked them out of any negotiations on any bills for two years. After he lost the House 2 years in to his first term, the GoP repaid his kindness with a big FU and halted everything he tried to put out.
Trump already "pardoned" her, didnt you listen to his speach? It was all part of the race. It's pretty obvious that anything a politician says during an election race will be heavily exaggerated and mainy aimed at getting the Job, in the US even more so. Good game from Trump and his campaign, played it well. Only reason Hillary would get trown to the wolves is if she somehow fought the result or disturbed the new order.
Macciavelli 101...
And the economy has not righted itself. Obscene amounts of money printing has created the illusion of that, but as with any binge there will be consequences....
UK and Germany are not exactly great examples of shining economies either. UK has similar structural issues to the US and Germany is staying afloat thanks to the weaker EMU countries subsidising the Euro. I believe China has a better chance to come out on top of this than any of the others. Sure - they have a huge pile of bad debt and the increase in salaries are really hurting their manufacturing sector right now, but they have a very efficient system for doling out policy, they have a gigantic doestic market with a huge growth potential still and it seems they now have a stable leadership with the worst corruption cleaned out which the population stands behind. Plus they work on longer time horizons than any other nation. When was the last time we heard about plans for 2025 or 2030 from any western country?
Can't say I'm looking forward to this development too much, however....
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Post by Brighttail on Nov 9, 2016 23:22:19 GMT -5
You are missing the big picture. If he doesn't pardon her now, then when Trump gets in he could easily charge her with a slew of things and she would have no where to run or hide. She wouldn't have a Democrat Department of Justice and Attorney General or a President that could pardon her. Trump even ran on the fact that when he got in he would re-open the investigation on her with HIS Attorney General. So if Obama doesn't pardon her, she absolutely could end up in jail. And yes, Obama could pardon her without ever being charged against future potential indictments. This is what Ford did with Nixon. Nixon's articles of Impeachment were never finalized, he resigned before they were voted on in the House, nor had he been criminally yet. Ford pardoned him so he would never be charged with any crimes associated with his Presidency. Yea but Nixon was a POTUS although I could see Obama possibly doing that her and using that as precedent. Keep in mind, it isn't up to Trump to prosecute her. He isn't King of America. He may appoint the Pilsbury dough boy Christie to lead the Justice Dept but if Comey is correct and there isn't enough to convict her, then Trump starts out with pie on the face and a huge disappointment to his cult. Nixon segue to Wikileaks... i have found it interesting that only DNC emails were hacked and released. More interesting that Giuliani is involved in a cyber security company and has always hinted at upcoming things against Clinton. I just smell a modern-day Watergate with all of this. The whole reason Hillary was not indicted was the fact that Lynch met with Bill on a tarmac in Phoenix and said she would take whatever recommendation the FBI gave, thus putting Hillary's entire political career in the non-political FBI hands. He couldn't indict because HE and he FBI would be blamed. This is why he didn't recommend charges but came out with a case against her saying she was completely guilty BUT no intent. That was his out that the DOJ gave him. There has been a revolt in the FBI and many agents have submitted their resignations that he has not accepted as of yet, because of his refusal to recommend charges. Trump doesn't need to indict her personally, all he needs to do is let the FBI know that they have full authority and support of his administration and the DOJ to do whatever they feel is necessary, with subpoenas and grand juries (something Obama's DoJ refused) Christie wont' be Attorney General, more likely Guliani. Honestly you are living in a fantasy world if you think Guilani had anything to do with the hacking and you are grasping at straws. He hints at stuff because he was mayor and worked as a prosecutor, plus has many friends inside the FBI currently and who have retired. In other words he has sources. Finally Podesta's email was hacked with a simple email password reset scam. He was stupid and fell for it. Also Hillary is and was a MUCH bigger target than Trump ever was, being a Sec of State and such. She was constantly targeted for hacking just like Kerry said he has been. As I said, it would be a mistake for Trump to instruct his DOJ (he is the head of the Executive Branch after all) to reopen the email case but I can fully see Trump allowing his DOJ to give FULL support to the FBI for the Foundation investigation. |
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Post by nevadaballin on Nov 10, 2016 2:32:08 GMT -5
Yea but Nixon was a POTUS although I could see Obama possibly doing that her and using that as precedent. Keep in mind, it isn't up to Trump to prosecute her. He isn't King of America. He may appoint the Pilsbury dough boy Christie to lead the Justice Dept but if Comey is correct and there isn't enough to convict her, then Trump starts out with pie on the face and a huge disappointment to his cult. Nixon segue to Wikileaks... i have found it interesting that only DNC emails were hacked and released. More interesting that Giuliani is involved in a cyber security company and has always hinted at upcoming things against Clinton. I just smell a modern-day Watergate with all of this. The whole reason Hillary was not indicted was the fact that Lynch met with Bill on a tarmac in Phoenix and said she would take whatever recommendation the FBI gave, thus putting Hillary's entire political career in the non-political FBI hands. He couldn't indict because HE and he FBI would be blamed. This is why he didn't recommend charges but came out with a case against her saying she was completely guilty BUT no intent. That was his out that the DOJ gave him. There has been a revolt in the FBI and many agents have submitted their resignations that he has not accepted as of yet, because of his refusal to recommend charges. Trump doesn't need to indict her personally, all he needs to do is let the FBI know that they have full authority and support of his administration and the DOJ to do whatever they feel is necessary, with subpoenas and grand juries (something Obama's DoJ refused) Christie wont' be Attorney General, more likely Guliani. Honestly you are living in a fantasy world if you think Guilani had anything to do with the hacking and you are grasping at straws. He hints at stuff because he was mayor and worked as a prosecutor, plus has many friends inside the FBI currently and who have retired. In other words he has sources. Finally Podesta's email was hacked with a simple email password reset scam. He was stupid and fell for it. Also Hillary is and was a MUCH bigger target than Trump ever was, being a Sec of State and such. She was constantly targeted for hacking just like Kerry said he has been. As I said, it would be a mistake for Trump to instruct his DOJ (he is the head of the Executive Branch after all) to reopen the email case but I can fully see Trump allowing his DOJ to give FULL support to the FBI for the Foundation investigation. It would all be a waste of resources to continue to chase her down and I'm not sure Trump will really do it. All that talk about special prosecutors was campaign posturing, especially when he says in his acceptance speech that the country has a debt of gratitude for her service. All that "lock her up" stuff and he ends with the country owing her a debt of gratitude. Then again, he is a bullshtter so who knows what he is really going to do. The whole bullshtter thing is what will drive most people crazy the next 4 years. I do think Christie is most likely get the AG job. And I also believe the entire Wikileaks thing smells of rotten fish and Rudy/his cyber security company are in the pond with it somewhere. Time will tell. |
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