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Post by Doyley on Aug 3, 2015 20:43:10 GMT -5
When you get a group of people like we have it won't matter what you put out - there will always be people that have an issue with something. As soon as we go back to easy greens and 70-under winning scores there will be complaints things are too easy. Hilly greens, shadows on greens, pins too close to fringe, too firm, too soft, too windy - you can have 98% of the user base happy and content, but it's rare - and dare I say impossible to get it to 100%. So Andre remember that you are only hearing from a minority of players - and just like the real PGA, they complain on that tour too - but the guys that buckle down and get it done are the ones walking away with the rankings/money/trophy.
Have to have a thick skin to do what TGC Tours is setting out to do so while it's always good to listen to your members, you always have to remember that you can't please everyone. Can't let it drag you down and make it a chore rather than a hobby.
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Post by tastegw on Aug 3, 2015 20:45:25 GMT -5
Doley, I don't think anyone is asking for -70 courses.
There's plenty of quality courses out the that play tough but fair.
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Post by SweetTeeBag on Aug 3, 2015 20:48:16 GMT -5
Well, I clearly screwed this course set up again, for a second time. It was tough setting up this course as the greens were very difficult to begin with. I play tested this one much much more but I clearly missed quite a bit. I apologize that many of you aren't having fun (despite many of you putting up good numbers). I will ask that my courses not be picked for any more PGA/Euro events and will focus on creating easier courses with less demanding greens that average players will hope to find a challenge. I'll admit, my confidence is a bit shot after reading comments over the last few weeks. I'm hopeful that this tournament doesn't turn people off TGC tours and I will make sure you guys get some courses coming up that have easier greens yet still provide a bit of a challenge for you. Sorry guys. Don't apologize Andre. Again, these are the same conditions everybody has to play in. Obviously people don't want to 3-4 putt greens but again this is just a game not real life career where we live or die for this and are tying to win money to support our families. You do more for this game and TGC Tours than most can only dream of in their free time.
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Post by edi_vedder on Aug 3, 2015 21:12:38 GMT -5
Started into the tournament yesterday with a 62 (-8).
Pretty happy with that, because I missed a few FIR/GIR. Luckily, my putter had a good day and I was able to get into the clubhouse with a decent round. Started into Rd2 with a Bogey on Hole #1 (missed fairways into the left bunker; 20ft Par putt stayed out on the edge) before I had to quit. Hopefully I'll recover from that when I get back on the course...
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Post by coruler2 on Aug 3, 2015 21:32:02 GMT -5
I'm fine with the greens and setup Andre. I'm not playing great (only -9 after 2 rounds), but I'm still having fun and enjoying the course and pins.
How was the feedback @ Devil's Escarpement on the Euro side? I rarely roam their message board, but did you get any bad feedback there?
Just like Doyley said, the most vocal people are usually the negative ones. People rarely go out of their way to give positive feedback these days about anything...so don't take a few loose threads as a failed sweater.
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Post by shoey101 on Aug 3, 2015 21:44:09 GMT -5
The greens were fine and none were unacceptable. If there is a slope behind the pin than do hit it hard past the cup. You just have to change the way you putt. Not every hole needs to be a birdie hole. A lot of complaining from the top 100 players in the game just cause a few greens prevent them from being easy birdie holes. Was a great all around course and I hope we get more like this in the future. Was nice to be forced to think a little when on the greens.
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Post by justamush on Aug 3, 2015 22:26:07 GMT -5
The greens were fine and none were unacceptable. If there is a slope behind the pin than do hit it hard past the cup. You just have to change the way you putt. Not every hole needs to be a birdie hole. A lot of complaining from the top 100 players in the game just cause a few greens prevent them from being easy birdie holes. Was a great all around course and I hope we get more like this in the future. Was nice to be forced to think a little when on the greens. I agree with this 100%:. I had 1 putt in 4 rounds that was questionable, that's it. The course was fine, the whining is really getting annoying. In real life you need to be careful with a downhill putt, same here. Don't hit the putt hard and you won't go 20 feet past the hole. Someone shot -31,so course was far from unfair.
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Post by justamush on Aug 3, 2015 22:31:39 GMT -5
We need more courses like this on tour. You actually had to think when you putt if you were above the hole, just like real life. I swear some of the complainers have never golfed a round in their life.
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Post by Brighttail on Aug 3, 2015 22:41:54 GMT -5
Well, I clearly screwed this course set up again, for a second time. It was tough setting up this course as the greens were very difficult to begin with. I play tested this one much much more but I clearly missed quite a bit. I apologize that many of you aren't having fun (despite many of you putting up good numbers). I will ask that my courses not be picked for any more PGA/Euro events and will focus on creating easier courses with less demanding greens that average players will hope to find a challenge. I'll admit, my confidence is a bit shot after reading comments over the last few weeks. I'm hopeful that this tournament doesn't turn people off TGC tours and I will make sure you guys get some courses coming up that have easier greens yet still provide a bit of a challenge for you. Sorry guys. Hey Crazy, This is not necessarily all your fault. As we have seen with past course, a designer can place the pin in a certain spot and upon publishing it is changed and suddenly on a Yellow slope. As things stands, there are really only 2 ways to make a course more challenging: 1. Firm up the greens 2. Make greens that are heavily sloped. Many of your greens would have been fair had the hole had an area around the hole, larger than 3 yards where a person could land safely and stick. The problem is when designing the course you might be considering a short wedge in, which is possible. But if the winds are against the player, suddenly they have a mid to long iron in and sticking it in the same spot is not as likely. So rather than having a pin where all sides roll away down yellow slopes, wouldn't it be better to have 2 or 3 of the sides roll down that yellow/red slope and have one side (not always in front or behind) be not as bad. In my opinion (and it is only mine that i can talk about) there should always be one side of a hole a person can play to for a reasonable birdie putt. I'm not talking a 8 foot, reasonable to me is even 20-25 feet. The issues I had with some of your greens is I would hit a ball that would roll right up to the cup, a foot or two away and looking like it will stop, only to turn right and roll back down a hill some 40 feet away. Okay fine, next time i'll aim to the left side of the hole.. Same thing except it turned left and rolled 30+ feet away down another hill. The only safe spot seemed to be going beyond the hole, down a slight green slope which would put me off the green some 5-6 yards away. You would then have to purposely chip short because if you went by the hole a foot, you were down one of those slopes. That to me is an unfair pin position. All that being said, hopefully with the rangers on the job, we can look at courses like these and give feed back to the designers about specific holes before they are put in the rotation for the tournaments. I have played dozens of new courses, some of them a few times, to try and give this type of feedback. One final note, I'm just one guy. Others may have complained a bit as well but we are each only one person. Other people may love this format. Not every tournament is going to satisfy every person. Every person has their personal preferences. Some love firm settings, other like soft. Some like fast greens other like medium. What I suggest is you take a look at the holes in particular that people have expressed negativity about and look to see what it is they didn't like. See what you can do in the future to try to make them a bit more fair. Everyone needs to remember that birdie is exceptional, par is average. Sure everyone wants to shoot a birdie or better, but I know there were certain holes that I went into the hole knowing that I was shooting for par. I was in no way attempting to fire at a pin, I was shooting on my approach shot to get me 2 putts and a par. That is legitimate golf. As an example next week's PGA tourney has several holes that with an 18 to 20mph wind, you aren't getting there in 2, but the designer knew this and made that particular hole location relatively easy that if you hit a good 3rd shot you wouldn't have a severely sloped putt to save par. That designer saved the severely sloped putts for the drivable par 4s, par 5s that can be reached in two or short par 4s where the second shot would almost always be a wedge. Bottom line is i have played and enjoyed many courses you have made. You said this was your first design to make a more 'challenging' course. Over all it was not that bad. There were several holes that were wonderful holes. For a first time out, well done. As I said, it simply was not my cup of tea, for others, I'm sure they enjoyed it. One final note, with the exception of TWO holes, I could stop severe down hill / sideways putt within a yard or two of each hole. People who say it is impossible, may not know how to putt. As I showed Ichaoz, I could putt in a way to take a shorter stroke and play bout 4x the break and leave the ball just under the hole for an easy par putt, but a lot of folks don't putt this way. It is possible, just not something many do.
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Post by edi_vedder on Aug 3, 2015 22:57:45 GMT -5
The greens were fine and none were unacceptable. If there is a slope behind the pin than do hit it hard past the cup. You just have to change the way you putt. Not every hole needs to be a birdie hole. A lot of complaining from the top 100 players in the game just cause a few greens prevent them from being easy birdie holes. Was a great all around course and I hope we get more like this in the future. Was nice to be forced to think a little when on the greens. I agree with this 100%. So do I. Greens might be quiet challenging occasionally, but I've not seen anything unfair/unplayable. I'm enjoying the course, and think it deserves being picked for the PGA Tour.
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Post by vegas310 on Aug 4, 2015 1:24:52 GMT -5
Well, I clearly screwed this course set up again, for a second time. It was tough setting up this course as the greens were very difficult to begin with. I play tested this one much much more but I clearly missed quite a bit. I apologize that many of you aren't having fun (despite many of you putting up good numbers). I will ask that my courses not be picked for any more PGA/Euro events and will focus on creating easier courses with less demanding greens that average players will hope to find a challenge. I'll admit, my confidence is a bit shot after reading comments over the last few weeks. I'm hopeful that this tournament doesn't turn people off TGC tours and I will make sure you guys get some courses coming up that have easier greens yet still provide a bit of a challenge for you. Sorry guys.
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Post by Brionne on Aug 4, 2015 1:59:43 GMT -5
crazycanuck
Please don't take my comment to heart, it's not an attack on you personally, rather an attack on the idea that this is the way forward to toughening up the tours. I apologise if I offended you.. Like Doyley says... thick skin is required. By publishing courses for tournament play all designers put themselves out there for criticism. You are probably one of the top 3 designers in all of TGC and rightfully so. To not use a course created by you for these tours would be a sin. In fact, I've even suggested one of your courses be considered for 'course of the year'..
@designers in general
I have not designed a course so I don't know if this is even possible, but surely, there must be a way to create a balance between firmness, green speed and degree of slope? For example, if the greens are super fast, shouldn't the degree of slope be mild? With long approaches these shots can still be extremely challenging as well as the putting.
When I see a top 20 player like Andi Smith shoot +41 for a tournament, I have to wonder why? The first thing that comes to mind is that he lost interest and just doesn't care anymore... It's not like he doesn't have the skill (Please feel free to correct me Andi if you read this).. This is not good.
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Post by mcbogga on Aug 4, 2015 3:19:09 GMT -5
Canuck makes some stunning courses - and is one of the best designers in game imo. For your play - his designs can be a bit one dimensional - but much rather one dimensional and challenging than birdie-fests for sure.
The absolute best courses are the well done real course creations. Why? Because the game is good enough of a simulator and real professional course designers are just that. Plenty of ways to make a hole challenging. BT 2 way are grossly oversimplified but in principle he is not far off.
The sense that birdie should be the normal score is just ridiculous as well. Every tour course should ideally have a couple of holes play over par for the field.
Finally on the putting - I see plenty of streams and ghost balls where people just blasts the putts. On too many courses they get away with it. Sending the ball 5 feet past the hole (1.5 squares) should be punished on tour as its a sure way to shoot yourself out of a tournament IRL. Have no problem sending such putts off the green or worse. Canuck's greens may be a bit on the cartoonish side and over punishing to to well struck approach shots - but they do present a proper challenge at least.
Taste did a great job on harbor island for the euro tour by the way.
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Post by AFCTUJacko on Aug 4, 2015 3:47:45 GMT -5
We all played the same course, in the same conditions, and those who play it best will be at the top. And you CAN score. So anyone using the word “unfair” is wrong. I blame no one but myself for my final two rounds, which were poor.
I just grew a bit tired of was hitting good shots (be they approaches, lag putts, bunker shots, whatever) to within 6 feet and still having a putt with 2 feet of break in it, be it uphill or downhill. It felt to me like you were equally punished for being defensive and playing for par as you were for being too aggressive. And it felt like it was almost every hole.
I can understand slopes as a defence mechanism on shorter holes, but mega long Holes like 7,9 & 18 don’t need the slopes to make them hard, especially when the wind is up.
Last thing I want to do is discourage Andre - he’s one of the best designers there is and his courses are absolutely worthy of the top tours. I just think on this occasion it was a bit much.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 4, 2015 3:55:02 GMT -5
Well, I clearly screwed this course set up again, for a second time. It was tough setting up this course as the greens were very difficult to begin with. I play tested this one much much more but I clearly missed quite a bit. I apologize that many of you aren't having fun (despite many of you putting up good numbers). I will ask that my courses not be picked for any more PGA/Euro events and will focus on creating easier courses with less demanding greens that average players will hope to find a challenge. I'll admit, my confidence is a bit shot after reading comments over the last few weeks. I'm hopeful that this tournament doesn't turn people off TGC tours and I will make sure you guys get some courses coming up that have easier greens yet still provide a bit of a challenge for you. Sorry guys. Don't be hard on yourself buddy. No need to say sorry to us.
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