jamesearl13
Weekend Golfer
Posts: 137 
TGCT Name: James Moon
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Post by jamesearl13 on May 21, 2015 3:44:35 GMT -5
OK, I'm just going to come out and be blunt. 95% of these super firm courses are just frickin' ridiculous. They're generally done with the subtlety of a Peter Griffin fart. It takes a real delicate balance and very particular set of design principles to make them a viable course. I hate them! I hate them! I hate them! They are NOT fun to play. Nobody likes them except for the real masochists, and they only like them because they think shooting under par is a sacrelige. If you cannot get GIR on a hole, its broken, plain and simple.
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Post by mcbogga on May 21, 2015 8:14:07 GMT -5
Any tips?
Any tricks?
I'd say - in firm conditions sometimes try to land the ball in front of the green or even in the rough to take some speed off and run up to the flag. Sometimes a green bunker may be your best leave.
Firm and fast can be awesome or it can be a cheap way to make an easy course more difficult. When it's done right it's awesome and a joy to play. Large greens with interesting slopes for the longer approaches and shorter holes with smaller landing areas.
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Post by smoknpirate on May 21, 2015 12:25:44 GMT -5
Believe it or not there are people that actually enjoy playing courses with firm and fast settings. So, should they not have the option of playing those courses? There are enough courses out there to give people choices. Agree that they need to be done right and if it's impossible to hold the green then it has been done wrong. Also, you can't give a course one play, miss some greens and then argue that the course was designed poorly. Sometimes it actually takes learning the course and where to hit your shots. It's part of the challenge. Another thing; if you're playing a firm course and there's a strong tailwind that pushes your ball through the green that does not mean there's a flaw in the design. It simply means you had some bad luck with the wind. And that's golf.
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reebdoog
TGCT Design Competition Directors
Posts: 2,742
TGCT Name: Brian Jeffords
Tour: CC-Pro
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Post by reebdoog on May 21, 2015 13:32:47 GMT -5
yeah, I've noticed that nothing really matters if you have a strong tail wind. All you can do is land short and hop on. Makes par 3's VERY hard. but like you said...that's golf.
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Post by blackaces13 on May 21, 2015 13:49:04 GMT -5
If fast/firm is the only way to prevent multiple guys shooting in the 50's every round then bring on the firmness. Any other method would almost certainly be even more gimmicky.
You say it's not fun to play firm/fast conditions. Well I don't find it fun to shoot double digits under par and lose ground to dozens of guys shooting -15 for the round. That is not golf.
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jamesearl13
Weekend Golfer
Posts: 137
TGCT Name: James Moon
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Post by jamesearl13 on May 22, 2015 21:03:15 GMT -5
Ya know, I was just really pissed because I had encountered 4 straight unreasonable firm courses. If you read my reviews, I will go out of my way to compliment those who construct a proper firm course. I certainly didn't mean to say that there's no place for them and my frustration came out in my harsh words. But designers don't think a lot when they have big slopes running towards the back, or put a bunker right in front of a forward pin placement, or dont allow for any landing area in front of the green to bounce and trickle. So apologies for my over the top comments, but will stand by my expectation that if a course is going to be firm, make it fair and playable.
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Post by mcbogga on May 22, 2015 21:10:30 GMT -5
Good is good and bad is bad. Course design is harder than people think. At least we don't need to consider players hitting different distances and trajectories...
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jamesearl13
Weekend Golfer
Posts: 137
TGCT Name: James Moon
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Post by jamesearl13 on May 22, 2015 21:43:08 GMT -5
Good is good and bad is bad. Course design is harder than people think. At least we don't need to consider players hitting different distances and trajectories... I whole heartedly agree, I SUCK at constructing them myself. I cannot sculpt the terrain, nor do I have the patience for the tedium of planting. |
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Post by Bobgod09 on May 25, 2015 4:17:46 GMT -5
I agree that alot of the firm courses are not designed well. I do not mind a firm / fast course. But holding the green should not be your only objective. Also alot of pins within the first 2 grids and tucked behind bunkers. Granted I like having to fight for par but u have to leave ways for good shots to find birdies. I also respect the crap out of the guys who can design firm courses and are done right. No small feat. Not all courses will b worth a second go. But that's some of the fun of golf. Unfortunately you have to play some bad ones to find the gems.
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Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
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Post by Deleted on May 25, 2015 11:00:54 GMT -5
I think a lot of people just go thorough 'tricking up' the course with fast, firm, sloping greens.
It's possible to design a hard course without making it firm and fast, or even medium-frim/medium-fast.
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Post by Bobgod09 on May 25, 2015 21:11:15 GMT -5
My US Open course Abaddon Golf Club USO Edition I made it med firm, fast greens and turned the slope up to make it harder to hold shots. I couldnt get it right with the firmness. Thats not to say I couldn't I just ended up liking how it played. In the end when designing it seems like the best way to learn is to do it really wrong. Lol, I know its helped my dumbness... Lol, i hope anyway
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Post by theduke21 on May 26, 2015 0:26:51 GMT -5
High firmness has to be done right to be fun. The Links at University Place was a nightmare for me to play because it was turned all the way up in firmness with no room to land your shots. You have to give some room in front of pins to at least give guys a shot. Not to mention, everyone likes to slope greens from front to back which is actually very frowned upon in the real world. If you want it to be crazy firm, fine, but at least allow room to land shots and provide some backup towards the back of greens so I'm not chipping from behind the green every hole.
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Post by pyates on May 26, 2015 5:46:21 GMT -5
High firmness has to be done right to be fun. The Links at University Place was a nightmare for me to play because it was turned all the way up in firmness with no room to land your shots. You have to give some room in front of pins to at least give guys a shot. Not to mention, everyone likes to slope greens from front to back which is actually very frowned upon in the real world. If you want it to be crazy firm, fine, but at least allow room to land shots and provide some backup towards the back of greens so I'm not chipping from behind the green every hole. Yeah sorry about that, I designed it to really test the guys at the top who are insanely good. Each of those greens can be held as I have made sure in testing I could birdie each of them (without sinking a crazy long putt)... But I don't think it was the most fun version of that course that it could have been. I already released a softer members version but I've also been working on a version that is slightly wider with some touching up here and there as well. It's still tough but it's much more within my skill range than the US Open course. Strangely a WIP version I've not publicised has almost reached as many plays as my US Open entry (52 when I checked yesterday)... I'm not sure who is finding this course or even how... At least people seem to be finishing and not rage quitting as I suspect some may have! |
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Post by theduke21 on May 26, 2015 11:00:50 GMT -5
High firmness has to be done right to be fun. The Links at University Place was a nightmare for me to play because it was turned all the way up in firmness with no room to land your shots. You have to give some room in front of pins to at least give guys a shot. Not to mention, everyone likes to slope greens from front to back which is actually very frowned upon in the real world. If you want it to be crazy firm, fine, but at least allow room to land shots and provide some backup towards the back of greens so I'm not chipping from behind the green every hole. Yeah sorry about that, I designed it to really test the guys at the top who are insanely good. Each of those greens can be held as I have made sure in testing I could birdie each of them (without sinking a crazy long putt)... But I don't think it was the most fun version of that course that it could have been. I already released a softer members version but I've also been working on a version that is slightly wider with some touching up here and there as well. It's still tough but it's much more within my skill range than the US Open course. Strangely a WIP version I've not publicised has almost reached as many plays as my US Open entry (52 when I checked yesterday)... I'm not sure who is finding this course or even how... At least people seem to be finishing and not rage quitting as I suspect some may have! Hey pyates, it's all good, because I've done the same thing on my more unrealistic courses I made when I first got the game. You hate seeing people tear up your own course. I'll have to try out the new design because I absolutely loved the layout and style of the course. In all honesty, you could keep the firmness if you could make some room in front of greens and pins to stop it, but I honestly would prefer with your design to keep the tucked locations and just soften it up to make the guys hit perfect shots and keep it around the hole. |
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wood1341
Caddy
Posts: 57
TGCT Name: Mark Wood
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Post by wood1341 on Jun 1, 2015 22:12:31 GMT -5
I'll reply to this thread, even though, it may be dead. I think the firmness of courses is being used wrong, honestly. A lot of the more recent "top notch" courses are being set at the firmness of a links type course, even though, the designs reflect more of a north American style. I think a great number of these courses are designed amazingly and are very creative. Just to firm. I was just watching US open highlights from previous years and don't think that these courses reflect the type of play you need to win a US open. Yes, opens definitely have fast greens. I have no complaints with the speed of any greens on any course, really. My big complaint is not being able to hold a shot on a green. We are forced to run any shot over 190 yards up to the green. I just watched Martin Kaymer fly a driver on to the 3rd hole of Pinehurst and hold it on the green. It's one thing if the green slopes away from your approach shot. Those are understandable shots to run through. If these are links courses, I would be all for landing your ball 20 yards short and letting the firmness help you get on the putting surface. When we are faced with 500 yard par 4s, the pin tucked behind a bunker, and ultra firm surfaces, then I feel like it's become a little bit gimmicky rather than a real test of golf.
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