kennyc
Weekend Golfer
what make/model i should get that keeps me within the rules. thanks.
Posts: 106
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Post by kennyc on Jan 2, 2023 15:53:43 GMT -5
Can we not play more "real" courses on tour? Much as I love and admire the designer courses, I find the greens to be very "tricked up"
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Post by BaconJunkie1 on Jan 4, 2023 14:38:31 GMT -5
It would nice for them to be used and there is a good selection to choose from ... Maybe someday.
Thanks Frans for using some on the Tru-Sim Tour!
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Post by dime5150 on Jan 4, 2023 16:58:02 GMT -5
It has to be some kind of licensing problem otherwise it would be a no-brainer to play mostly real courses
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Post by sroel908 on Jan 4, 2023 17:16:47 GMT -5
It has to be some kind of licensing problem otherwise it would be a no-brainer to play mostly real courses The community here has always been more about the designers who create quality fictional courses, using the Tours as a place these courses can get showcased and used as event hosts. That said, there were multiple Platinum events last season that were played on real courses, or ones that were based on real-life venues (Fruitland Farms, for example). And the True Sim Tour almost exclusively uses RCRs for their events. So it's not like TGCT is avoiding use of real courses. It's just that the user-made ones are really what gives the tours the freshness that has kept this thing going for 9 seasons now. |
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Post by BaconJunkie1 on Jan 4, 2023 17:17:49 GMT -5
It has to be some kind of licensing problem otherwise it would be a no-brainer to play mostly real courses I've had my courses used on the Platinum and True-Sim tours here, I doubt that is the issue here. Dropping Poppy Hills (2023 version) in a few days and Seminole (post Coore-Crenshaw) a few days after that ... these flat bottom bunkers are pain the back forty! |
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Post by b101 on Jan 5, 2023 2:00:37 GMT -5
There's a couple of reasons really.
One: most RCRs are too short and forgiving for video golf - no pros regularly carry it 305 yards dead straight and can fire at every pin.
Two: most good designers don't design RCRs. With a few exceptions, the quality really isn't very good (most are Approved rather than Tour Worthy).
True Sim Tour is really your place for RCRs, as the extra constraints make the real courses play better. As it is, Frans is struggling to find enough RCRs for that tour alone, so there certainly aren't enough good ones to bulk out the other tours.
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Post by yeltzman on Jan 5, 2023 6:12:44 GMT -5
Love to know how many real courses you have played (2k21), when i look at ghost play never seen any nextmakers play real courses let alone promote them.
I suppose its the same the other way round if you really enjoy Real Courses you might not like made up fictional ones, but when you comment it does not go down well especially on the greens which i find most are just tricked up to keep scoring down(PS i know i am not good enough to play these courses).Still trying to work out what as happened to the greens in 2k23 not sure if it improved the situation for real courses or made it worst.
Also i think over the last couple of games or over the last 3-4 years here this site has gone more towards a design community than more about the Golf which has been played again in the past it wasn't about the scoring more about the game, just a personal view and in the end its all about what you enjoy and play and not others telling you what your suppose to enjoy or design.
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Post by fransslabak on Jan 5, 2023 7:24:08 GMT -5
There's a couple of reasons really. One: most RCRs are too short and forgiving for video golf - no pros regularly carry it 305 yards dead straight and can fire at every pin. Two: most good designers don't design RCRs. With a few exceptions, the quality really isn't very good (most are Approved rather than Tour Worthy). True Sim Tour is really your place for RCRs, as the extra constraints make the real courses play better. As it is, Frans is struggling to find enough RCRs for that tour alone, so there certainly aren't enough good ones to bulk out the other tours. As the previous poster pointed out, please be careful with saying quality isn't very good for most RCRs - it really depends on how you define quality. Personally, being a big fan of real courses, I'd argue the layout of most RCRs is better than the layout of most non-RCRs. For the latter category, with a few exceptions, playing them really doesn't feel like golf. It feels like pixel golf, for sure, and sometimes really challenging and fun pixel golf, but not golf. And some of us are actually looking for courses that, despite knowing you're actually playing pixel golf, make you feel you are playing golf. And yes, b101 , I'm also saying this to encourage more designers to create RCRs that I could use in TST - guilty as charged. But I'm also saying it because that's how I feel as a player as well. |
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Post by blueblood1995 on Jan 5, 2023 7:35:50 GMT -5
There's a couple of reasons really. One: most RCRs are too short and forgiving for video golf - no pros regularly carry it 305 yards dead straight and can fire at every pin. Two: most good designers don't design RCRs. With a few exceptions, the quality really isn't very good (most are Approved rather than Tour Worthy). True Sim Tour is really your place for RCRs, as the extra constraints make the real courses play better. As it is, Frans is struggling to find enough RCRs for that tour alone, so there certainly aren't enough good ones to bulk out the other tours. As the previous poster pointed out, please be careful with saying quality isn't very good for most RCRs - it really depends on how you define quality. Personally, being a big fan of real courses, I'd argue the layout of most RCRs is better than the layout of most non-RCRs. For the latter category, with a few exceptions, playing them really doesn't feel like golf. It feels like pixel golf, for sure, and sometimes really challenging and fun pixel golf, but not golf. And some of us are actually looking for courses that, despite knowing you're actually playing pixel golf, make you feel you are playing golf. And yes, b101 , I'm also saying this to encourage more designers to create RCRs that I could use in TST - guilty as charged. But I'm also saying it because that's how I feel as a player as well. I think it's a real shame that many of the very very good RCRs I've played are not allowed on the TST tour simply because they have not been submitted, e.g. most of Yeltzman's links courses, a number of courses I've played recently with (AG) in the course name (Valhalla, Wolf Creek and Bethpage), and some of friendBOMBERs RCRs (esp. Pebble Beach, Cabot Cliffs, Coppinwood, CordeValle, Meadowbrook among others). If these were able to be used then TST would be at another level and I'd certainly play another season. Hoping Craig (theclv) ports some of his RCRs. Of course there's a place for both RCRs and fictional courses in this game but to say "the quality isn't very good" is inaccurate IMO. |
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Post by b101 on Jan 5, 2023 7:36:38 GMT -5
Love to know how many real courses you have played (2k21), when i look at ghost play never seen any nextmakers play real courses let alone promote them. I suppose its the same the other way round if you really enjoy Real Courses you might not like made up fictional ones, but when you comment it does not go down well especially on the greens which i find most are just tricked up to keep scoring down(PS i know i am not good enough to play these courses).Still trying to work out what as happened to the greens in 2k23 not sure if it improved the situation for real courses or made it worst. Also i think over the last couple of games or over the last 3-4 years here this site has gone more towards a design community than more about the Golf which has been played again in the past it wasn't about the scoring more about the game, just a personal view and in the end its all about what you enjoy and play and not others telling you what your suppose to enjoy or design. Ok, a few points here. 1) I'm not saying ALL RCRs are poorly designed, but when you step past the architectural side (by which I mean hole designs) there is a huge dip in technical quality (sculpting, surfacing, planting) compared to the top fictional courses. I can think of some key exceptions: Cypress Point, Friars Head, Fishers Island, NGLA, Augusta/Fruitland etc etc. I'm sorry if that is considered elitist, but that is clear cut and is why many are Approved rather than Tour Worthy. Even with Lidars you have to do sculpting work to ensure they aren't blind (consider the difference in aspect between a camera behind a player vs. your eye level when you stand and look from whilst playing golf) and removing artefacts on greens etc. 2) Now, whether that matters to you is different. Frans and I have chatted about this via PM and that's why TST dips into Approved from time to time. I get it, but the point above still stands. 3) I agree with the greens - hence why I've put out two videos trying to educate designers for these. 4) I'd also like to see more real courses. As for why there aren't more? Most of the top designers do this for a creative outlet. Designing RCRs doesn't do that for most of us. Plus, lidar is seriously slow and laborious, which I imagine is why the quality output is partly lower - it's tough to take the speed of the designer with that. 5) I play barely any courses, fictional or otherwise. And I'm not telling you what you're supposed to enjoy designing or playing; merely explaining that there is a dip in quality (generally) between RCRs and the top fictional courses. I've reviewed more than enough and am happy to point the differences out should you need more information. I'd hope it's clear, but none of this is to slate designers of RCRs. The OP was asking why more aren't on Tour - those, combined with the length are the reasons. You mention pixel golf vs real golf and I totally agree. However, it is a pixel golf game - should we really be surprised that courses designed toward that skillset are more prevalent than real courses players will easily overpower? I would LOVE if RCRs played better in this game (they do on certain settings and the improvement in misses is definitely better than in 21), but they don't pose quite the same challenge. |
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Post by b101 on Jan 5, 2023 7:39:16 GMT -5
And yes, b101 , I'm also saying this to encourage more designers to create RCRs that I could use in TST - guilty as charged. But I'm also saying it because that's how I feel as a player as well. Yep, and fully support that. |
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Post by yeltzman on Jan 5, 2023 8:52:03 GMT -5
I wonder if you gave most players the choice if they would choose a well made Rip off of St Andrews or a Lidar version of the proper course.99% of players i reckon have no idea of the design process they play what's in front of them.
Maybe i look at it the wrong way from this site TGC tours point of view,i just think you shouldn't design a course which test maybe 100-150 of the playing public where in 2k21 there was 2 million sales and maybe that's the reason why we design them and even don't submit them here because its about the test not the enjoyment like you say.
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Post by sroel908 on Jan 5, 2023 9:17:28 GMT -5
As the previous poster pointed out, please be careful with saying quality isn't very good for most RCRs - it really depends on how you define quality. Personally, being a big fan of real courses, I'd argue the layout of most RCRs is better than the layout of most non-RCRs. For the latter category, with a few exceptions, playing them really doesn't feel like golf. It feels like pixel golf, for sure, and sometimes really challenging and fun pixel golf, but not golf. And some of us are actually looking for courses that, despite knowing you're actually playing pixel golf, make you feel you are playing golf. And yes, b101 , I'm also saying this to encourage more designers to create RCRs that I could use in TST - guilty as charged. But I'm also saying it because that's how I feel as a player as well. I think it's a real shame that many of the very very good RCRs I've played are not allowed on the TST tour simply because they have not been submitted, e.g. most of Yeltzman's links courses, a number of courses I've played recently with (AG) in the course name (Valhalla, Wolf Creek and Bethpage), and some of friendBOMBERs RCRs (esp. Pebble Beach, Cabot Cliffs, Coppinwood, CordeValle, Meadowbrook among others). If these were able to be used then TST would be at another level and I'd certainly play another season. Hoping Craig (theclv) ports some of his RCRs. Of course there's a place for both RCRs and fictional courses in this game but to say "the quality isn't very good" is inaccurate IMO. I'd just like to point out that the Pebble Beach course mentioned above was tested and rangered for TST play. The greens and pin sets were set such that they would not be useable on TST or any TGCT flight for that matter at even default speeds (which are already set to a relatively slow 140). The course would have to be set to Very Slow green speeds to maybe work...so it's not like we're avoiding these courses or not giving them their fair shake. |
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Post by b101 on Jan 5, 2023 9:35:38 GMT -5
Love to know how many real courses you have played (2k21), when i look at ghost play never seen any nextmakers play real courses let alone promote them. One other point I forgot to reply to - we actively cannot promote real courses as they infringe copyright. There’s a disclaimer when you open the designer; even designing those is in breach of copyright immediately. Whilst 2K/HB generally look the other way, they have specifically asked Nextmakers not to promote real courses, for obvious reasons (see Fruitland). |
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Post by Q on Jan 5, 2023 9:42:25 GMT -5
Chicago Golf Club is on CC next week! It's one of my all-time personal favorite RCRs (next to NGLA) and it translated nicely to this game.
An option for RCRs is always the possibility of doing a "tour" version of the course that adds fictional versions of back tees to the course so it plays appropriately in this game. I think something like that was attempted at the Pasatiempo LiDar (sadly greens didnt port well to 23) and at LIDO (hickoryghost is too famous for us now to port it to 23 methinks).
I've been seriously tackling a proper sheep ranch rcr forever and tbh, without adding fictional tees for a "tour" version, it's just far too short of a course to be used for TGCT. Also having replica greens will just make them solid red unplayable as the green physics are just a bit wonky.
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