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Post by turkmcgill on Mar 16, 2022 16:49:45 GMT -5
A very kind soul on Reddit named ChocolateHomunculus reviewed the beta version of my latest course and made the following comment: They were right! I considered adding some bunkers, to address this problem, but in this game those are not much of a deterrent. So on a few of my holes I separated the fairway from the green. Like this: NOTE: This is supposed to be a sort of rustic municipal course in Wyoming. My goal was to create a risk/reward situation. Players absolutely CAN go for the green in two... but if they miss it they're going to find themselves in the long grass with a questionable lie. (I flattened the area in front of the green to make it possible to land short and bounce/roll on... though the direction of the bounce can be a little unpredictable.) Thoughts? Does this work for most of you, or as a player would you find it frustrating?
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Post by fargo on Mar 16, 2022 19:05:03 GMT -5
Hey mate, that's my username on reddit.
Here's my 2¢, and a few semi-random thoughts about par 5s:
There's no issue if the green is separated from the fairway if there's a reason for it to be, like a landform or other hazard or feature. In the case of the picture above, there doesn't seem to be a reason, and I don't think it looks great like that.
Regarding risk and reward: yes a bunker is a hazard that players want to avoid. Of course it's not hard to get up and down out of a bunker for a birdie, but it's better to be on the green rather than in a bunker 30 yards off the green. And it's better to be on the fairway 100 yards from the hole than being in a bunker half that distance to the hole.
So if this is a par 5 which is reachable in 2, think about where you expect to be hitting your second shot from (in various wind conditions) and think about the shot that is required - where is the player likely to want to land the ball to get it up to the hole. Maybe block the angle in if the player has opted for a safer drive, and open up the angle if the player has taken on a riskier drive - that then creates a risk/reward scenario that involves two shots in conjunction.
It's completely acceptable to force a creative shot when trying to reach a green in less than regulation. So if the only possible way to get the ball to stop on the green is to force the player to hit a big draw around some hazards or so the ball is tracking along the long axis of the green then that's great. As long as there is a layup option too. And you can vary the distance and difficulty of the third shot when laying up so as to incentivise or discourage the player from hitting the hero shot depending on their appetite for risk. (Don't force a shot like this if it's to reach the green in regulation).
Use of sloping ground can work well - a particular long shot into a green can be effectively cut off by the shape of the land which can kick a ball down into a hazard or some rough.
Be aware that a chip from heavy rough right off the green is not a particularly fun shot. Lots of people use fairway fringes around greens to funnel balls into collection areas which can be made to be more interesting than just a chip from 2 inches into heavy rough just off a green
Many times a long breaking putt is more difficult than a chip from just off the green. Instead of just having the green funnel misjudged or mis-hit balls off the green, consider using slopes to keep the ball on the green, within 75 feet of the pin, but with a really precarious putt back.
Don't worry about it if many players just bomb the ball into the bunkers and get up and down for birdie.
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Post by turkmcgill on Mar 17, 2022 6:48:49 GMT -5
More sage advice. Thanks again!
Not sure how much my feedback is worth but I'd be happy to send thoughts on your next course. Maybe not as a "Master Designer" but at least as someone who plays and enjoys the game. Just let me know!
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Post by fargo on Mar 17, 2022 17:28:43 GMT -5
More sage advice. Thanks again! Not sure how much my feedback is worth but I'd be happy to send thoughts on your next course. Maybe not as a "Master Designer" but at least as someone who plays and enjoys the game. Just let me know! Thanks mate. Don't get me wrong, I'm no master designer - I only have one course that I'm mostly happy with. I reckon the feedback from non-designer players, novice designers and more experienced designers are all equally relevant. I'll probably have a beta that I will post here in about a month or so, depending on how busy I get.
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Post by b101 on Mar 18, 2022 9:00:10 GMT -5
A few? Sure. More than about two or three? Probably not. Even when you do, make sure to have some fairway apron (except in very exceptional circumstances - e.g. a three shot par five) to allow people to land the ball short and run on. Many of the worst designed holes I've seen neglect this, assuming everyone will be hitting from the fairway and with no wind. Far more important to think about what happens when people miss than what happens when they hit it straight.
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Post by photokevie on Mar 20, 2022 9:40:46 GMT -5
Separating the green is fine, just design the green complex ALMOST like a par 3 green sight with some fairway/light rough landing areas and bailouts but just know some players will be coming in hot with a charged up long shot and hopefully looking for that favorable kick/bounce. Also consider having a few other holes on your course be separated green setups, so as not to have a random hole be the only one to have a separated green. Not to say it’s not possible, it very well could be the only green on your course set up like that but it may draw a little extra unintended attention.
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jayraygun
Weekend Golfer
Don't worry, that unintentional blindness was intentional.
Posts: 137
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Post by jayraygun on Mar 20, 2022 11:02:38 GMT -5
This is an example of a separated green on my latest course: In my case this is a short par 4 where an errant tee shot can put you in the rough or one of the front bunkers. A layup offers the chance at a short pitch in and partial pitches can be pretty difficult in this game so a mistake there can also be penalized with an awkward lie out of the rough of a greenside bunker shot. Design wise, like photokevie mentioned doing, I designed the green complex more like a short par 3 with an elevated, smallish green. Because your second shot from a lay-up into the fairway (or even an errant tee shot into the rough or bunkers) will be so short, on this particular hole I don't have any green apron or runoff areas but I do have them on other holes. Like others mentioned, if you're going to separate the green from the fairway there needs to be some reasoning behind it either strategically or environmentally. Like in my case, the entire course is pretty short with some easily drivable par 4s. I didn't want this short par 4 to be drivable so that's why I went with this design strategy. A famous example of a green separated for strategic and environmental reasons is #13 at Augusta National. It's a short, slightly uphill, sharp dogleg left par 5 with the green separated from the fairway by Rae's Creek. With a well-placed tee shot you have a good chance to make the green in two but the camber of the fairway makes the lie tricky, the green is elevated, and the creek causes many players to overcompensate and hit it long where it's further protected by four large bunkers. Basically, you want a sound reasoning from a design choice like this, even if it's only justified in your head. You always want to avoid adding manufactured difficulty simply for the sake of making a course or a certain hole harder.
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Post by gforce41 on Mar 21, 2022 6:58:06 GMT -5
Sure, there are plenty of holes like this that I have played. I have made a bunch of them myself, but the important note as already stated is to have a reason for it and you probably don't want too many. Usually it's a hazard or an elevation change. One thing that most inexperienced designers miss if focusing on the entrance to the green. So be sure to understand what the hole call for and why. Here is one of my own pictures of a pretty cool hole, this is 8 at Sunday River in Maine. A par 4 about 400 yds depending on tees. As you can see, there is a natural land form- a creek--that is the reason. And note there is an apron short right to bail out on.
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