Looking for feedback (Prairie Dog Memorial)

[turkmcgill]

The beta version of my course is: casper_muni_beta

The Quick Backstory
So there's a bit of a story behind this one. After finishing my first two courses (one approved, the other nearly approved), I decided to recreate the golf course I played when I was growing up in Casper, Wyoming. I had just gotten started when my father passed away. I didn't work on the course again for nearly a year. When I finally started again I quickly came to a couple of realizations:

1. I didn't remember the old course very well, and when I checked Google Maps (and the course website) I discovered that it had been updated and changed significantly.
2. In terms of PGA2K21, it wasn't a very interesting course to play.

So I decided to create a new and challenging golf course that was somewhat reminiscent of that old course, of my hometown, and in some cases the entire state of Wyoming. I am naming it Prairie Dog Memorial (the last part for my Dad). 

The Course
One of the main things I remember about playing golf in Wyoming was that the greens were frequently hard as rocks. To keep the ball on the putting surface it was often necessary to land in front of the green and bounce/roll up. That is definitely the case with some of the holes here.

Also, the bunkers were not always well taken care of and it was difficult to play out of them. To sort of suggest this I created a number of waste bunkers that are full of heavy rough, and weeds. Avoid these like the plague. If you end up in the middle of one you'll be forced to take a unplayable lie.

At 7200 yards it's not the longest course, but I've still tried to make it challenging yet fair. (Please let me know if you find the course too easy or too hard!)


Hole 1 (with Prairie Dogs)

 
 Hole 2 (my home course had a hole like this, with OB right)

Stay out of the waste bunkers (you might have to take an unplayable lie)


Devil's Tower is an iconic Wyoming image. I had to include it. (This hole has an island green).


Hole 10 (another tricky par 3, with an elevated green)



The tiny 18th green has two waste bunkers.


I'd love to get any thoughts you might have on the difficulty of the course, my planting, the greens, hole routing, etc.

Thanks!

[turkmcgill]

I haven't received any feedback from the TGC community, but I'm getting some good feedback from my Reddit post! There seems to be a consensus that it's a "great track" and "very playable", but that the greens are "punishing". I was going for "challenging but fair" so now I'm trying to get some clarification on whether they are *too* punishing.

Another reviewer felt that the par 5 18th was unfair and unfun. I'd love to get more feedback on that one. (You can see the green in the last picture, above.) I wanted players to be tempted to go for the green in two, but that shot is nearly impossible. The smart play is to lay up short of the ditch and hit a wedge to the very narrow green, preferably with a little backspin so you don't bounce long... the greens are VERY hard.

[fergdawg]

I'll play this later and tell you what I think. Based on the photos, it looks great! I love the tee-box markers!

[sroel908]

Hey turkmcgill , just played casper_muni_beta, default conditions, white tees, Pin 4. Here are my hole-by-hole thoughts:

1 - had unintentional blindness on Hole 1 from the fairway; cannot see the green/pin from the middle of the short grass.
2 - pin here is extremely tucked in the back left...only 2.5 grid boxes from the edge of the green. Might be a bit too close.
3 - can see the original tee marker here in front of the bison skull. Sculpting around the pin here needs some touch ups...pin is on a crowned area and yellow slope at default 178 speeds. Ball moves oddly near the hole, so micro-sculpt around the pin to smooth these spots out.
4 - cow pasture is not OB? Sculpting is a bit harsh on right side of fairway near the tree, and on the left side of the green near the bunkers. Slopes are just too pronounced and the ball moves around strangely.
5 - again, green has odd humps and slopes. Micro-sculpting of greens in general seems to need some work.
6 - can see the right tee marker in front of skull. I'm generally not a fan of centerline hazards, and the one here is no exception. There's no strategic element to it IMO. I had a 15 mph wind in my face, hit dirver, and still managed to find the hazard. If I only used 3-wood into this wind, I'm probably 200 yards from the green. The design, using that centerline bunker, just makes this hole annoying instead of challenging. More odd slopes on the green, and another cow pen that's not OB.
7 - Hit a good drive, and have no view of the green on my second, even though I'm just 229 away. The interesting "hazard" to the left of the green here looks weird to me, and the green is red-sloped right into it. I'd advise against using red slopes to usher balls into traps and hazards.
8 - I didn't quite understand the strange hill that's 130 yards away and blocks the view of the left side of the green? Also, this hole is 207 yards long, the pin position here is just 3 boxes from the left edge of the green, and there's no way to run the ball up at all. And in contrast to the other holes so far, the area around this pin is flat as a pancake.
9 - the fairway here starts 285 yards from the back tees! That's a bit too far away IMO. Wind is at my back, so I can luckily reach the fairway from the tee. Green here again has odd sloping...there's a hump in the front-middle of the green that causes it to both slope front to back and back to front.
10 - tee markers are visible here thru the skulls. Green sculpting is again a bit unnatural.
11 - waypoint has me aiming with 3-wood into the rough. Grasses/bushes are growing into the fairway:

Hole design here isn't my favorite. Green again needs some micro-sculpting to roll more naturally.

12 - drivable par-4 has very little danger...no one is ever laying up. Greens again need some sculpting focus.
13 - this is my favorite hole so far on the course. Nice design and plays very well. Greenside bunker needs some better sculpting, but I liked this hole very much.
14 - aside from the cool view of Devils Tower, the view of the green here is a bit underwhelming. Would like to see more of it and the surrounding water.
15 - the fairway bunker at about 250 yards odd, cutting thru surfaces. Some really harsh sculpting on the fairway and green again.
16 - second shot from just over 200 yards is totally blind. Sculpting is again an issue.
17 - green is huge, but over half of it is unpinnable red slopes that create a punchbowl-ish feel? Seemed a bit out of place and the red slopes hurt me more than helped, sending me 20 yards backwards from the rear of the surface, putting me well away from the hole.
18 - left tee marker visible. Sorry to say, but this is a poor hole design. The tree blocks almost the entire view of the landing area. Can't reach green on second due to strong winds, so I have to layup with a 9-iron. Green is super narrow and chips won't even stay on it. Left a poor taste in my mouth and is not a fun finisher at all. I know you're working on this hole, and I think that's a smart idea.

General thoughts: I did think you had some nicely framed holes, but the technical details need attention. Sculpting, especially on the greens, needs a fair amount of work IMO. Putts moved all over the place.

Most par 3s were almost all similar length, somewhere between 180-210 yards. Try varying up your distances, so the holes don't feel all the same.

Hole 13 was far and away the best on the course. So I know you've got the right design mentality and view to build a solid course. I think you'll just want to spend a bit more time on the details of the track in order to make it play better and feel more natural.

[turkmcgill]

@sroel908 Amazing feedback. Thank you! I'll get right on fixing the things you talked about.

Regarding the green on #17... I can't remember the name now, but there's a famous par 3 that requires players to hit to the front/right part of the green, and then the ball trickles across and down to the hole. That's what I was going for here. You hit to the right front part of the green and let the ball run up and around the slope. A good shot will settle in very close to the pin. I could move the tees closer and give players the option to hit over the bunker and trickle down. (Or hit front/right and take the long way.) What do you think?

[sroel908]

Feb 16, 2022 6:16:33 GMT -5 turkmcgill said:

@sroel908 Amazing feedback. Thank you! I'll get right on fixing the things you talked about.

Regarding the green on #17... I can't remember the name now, but there's a famous par 3 that requires players to hit to the front/right part of the green, and then the ball trickles across and down to the hole. That's what I was going for here. You hit to the right front part of the green and let the ball run up and around the slope. A good shot will settle in very close to the pin. I could move the tees closer and give players the option to hit over the bunker and trickle down. (Or hit front/right and take the long way.) What do you think?

Totally get the idea here, and I think it can work. For me, there's too much dramatic red sloping and very little in the way of pinnable locations. You cannot put a pin at all in the right portion of the green. Therefore, all hole locations will be in roughly the same spot and require the exact same kind of shot off the tee to be successful.

The issue I encountered is that the pin was more to the left (I think) than in your above screenshot. I had cross winds blowing in excess of 15 and 16 mph, and my tee shot went right of the flag but not all the way to that right green section. I caught the back-to-front red slope at the back of the green, and the ball trickled all the way down almost to the back-right edge of the bunker. The slopes didn't really help at all, and they only do if you're precisely on line with the hole.

I guess my feeling is that, how the current green is set up, you have to hit exactly one kind of shot here. There's not a lot of subtlety to it, and each time you play the hole, it will be exactly the same shot required. My initial thought would be to calm the slopes a little bit, open up some pinnable locations on the right to add variety, and give the player a few more options off the tee to hit one close, perhaps including a ground-game option to get one near a pin on the right side of the surface.

The length of the hole is OK, but knowing that you do have other par-3s at about the same distance, you could consider shortening the hole. But I'd then say you may want to shrink the size of the green a bit and still calm the red slopes, too. So that might be a bit more work than would be necessary. Just a few thoughts.

[turkmcgill]

Excellent advice. Thanks again!