Phoenix River Country Club

[fergdawg]

Hey all, there will be a backstory for this when I release it officially, but I just wanted to get some playthroughs of a beta version if at all possible. Set somewhere in the prairies (AB, SK), it's called Phoenix River (after the river it plays along [and also the actor ...]) and features great golf with excellent views of the river valley. 

Clubhouse, tucked away behind bramble (range can be seen in background):



The river is prominent on several holes, as is the 'bramble' bush that hugs it nearly the whole way round.



Two driveable fours, 6 par 3s and 4 par 5s for a par 70.



Greens at 174. Prevailing wind direction is probably west, although there's not a particularly 'easy' wind for this course, as most holes go different directions.

Black - 7278

Blue - 7084

White - 6492

Green - 6249

Red -  6041

I've playtested it through and through and feel like it's there, but I wanted to get some other members of the community to throw in their feedback before I actually publish it. Mostly I'm interested in how people are feeling about the sightlines, if there's any unintentional blindness, and also green slopes and playability factors. The rocks will have hole numbers on them, I just didn't get around to it before the beta.

It's published as a beta under the name PRK_2020_beta (because apparently when I published this last night I temporarily forgot that was 2 years ago!) Guaranteed no one will accidentally play it I guess. Thanks all and let me know what you think!

[sroel908]

Hey fergdawg , just played this beta - default conditions, W/SW wind at 4-10 mph, black tees, Pin 4.

The sightline off the tee on Hole 2 is a bit odd. The bridge is right in the line of sight, and the chain link fence used as a railing doesn't quite look right to me. The hole itself is basically a 90-degree dogleg left, which is a slight concern. The planting here is a bit jarring - all the trees on the right are the same, and all the trees on the left, while different from the ones on the right, are also the same:


Hole 3, the left side of the green running off steeply into a bunker isn't ideal:


Hole 4, I was given a 4-iron off the tee on a 328-yard par-4 that aimed straight down a small bit of fairway. Clubbed up to driver, and there's no way I ever consider not going for the green here. The green is small-ish and has slope, but there's pretty much no danger if I miss it. I did like the fairway around the green that would catch any shot that rolled off the surface.

The green complex on Hole 6 is shaped in a way that will likely require folks who play it to chip or pitch on the green, due to the fact the bunker cuts into the green quite a bit:


Hole 8 is a 625-yard par-5 with three distinct split sections. The section on the right ends at 330 yards, so going there with driver is a gamble as the tee shot is downhill. The left section gives you a better angle and a shorter approach anyway, so I went over there. Still had 303 left to the hole on my second. The second shot is blind, and the layup zone is small. Laying up would leave me about 140 yards away:




I went for the green in two, and ended up in a flat-ish area of heavy rough on the bank of the river, 60 yards from the pin.

Hole 10 is almost exactly the same has Hole 4. It's a 301-yard drivable par-4, where I was given 3-wood off the tee to aim down the fairway that ends 295 yards away from the tee. Again, clubbed up to driver and went for it. There's a bit more danger, as the river is closer, but this is a hole where you'd always go for the green off the tee. I even had 9 mph of breeze into my face and found the putting surface.

The green on Hole 11 has a slope on the right like the one on Hole 3 did on the left. Anything on the right side of the green is ushered down into a bunker:


Hole 13 is another beast of a par-5 into the wind. 590 yards long, and even with a drive of 305, I am left 334 from the pin. Driver off the deck on my second doesn't even reach the layup area across the river. Have to lay up in front of the river, still 140 yards away. And the green on this hole is absolutely massive:


The false front on the Hole 14 green is extreme, IMO. It's a 210 yard, 31-foot uphill par-3, and anything that's on the front 20-25 feet of the green is getting rejected off and sent down a hill and well below the putting surface:


Hole 15 is another really long par-5 that's not even remotely reachable in two, and I even had the wind helping this time.

Didn't understand why there's a split in the fairway on Hole 16.

Again, Hole 18 is a par-4 where the fairway just stops and is split at about 355 yards from the tee and 117 yards from the hole. But there's no real need for it. I had a 4 mph wind at my back on this hole, and pushed my drive out there over 330 yards. If the wind is higher, driver might be the wrong play, and this is on a 471-yard hole. It just doesn't make sense to me why this is broken up:


The Hole 18 green also has slopes that funnel shots into sand.

In general, the look is not bad, but there is some quirkiness with planting...all the boundary trees are exactly the same. The planting by the river looks solid. I did get some lag that didn't affect shots, but was noticeable, especially near heavily planted spots close to the river. I didn't really care for the bridges with the chain link fences on them, especially when they were viewable right near the tee. They didn't look right to me.

I personally feel the scale of some parts of this course is off. The bunkers and greens are humongous and don't quite look right. It seems to be that you were going for waste areas with the sand, but they just look like really, really big "traditional" hazards. This isn't necessarily a problem, but it just looked a tad strange.

Also, the hole lengths are all pretty demanding (and are all quite similar):

- There are par-3s that are 180, 176, 212, 204, 207, and 207 again. 
- There are par-4s that are 475, 462, 510, 450, and 486.
- There are par-5s that are 638, 617, 643, and 640.

The only other holes on this course are the drivable par-4s and a mid-length par-4 that's 431 yards. It could use some more variety in lengths to offer some more interest.

The views and such aren't too bad at all, so that side of things is OK. Perhaps some tweaks here and there, and there wasn't much in the way of unintentional blindness. But honestly, the tree panting, hole design, some green slopes, and the scale of hole lengths and greens/bunkers were the areas of concern here for me.

I really hope this helps, and I do see a lot of good in this course, too. The setting is nice, the planting around the river is really good, and the textures you used are perfect for the look and feel of this course. I think some more attention to those other areas will bring this all together and provide a solid course.

[fergdawg]

Jan 26, 2022 13:19:07 GMT -5 sroel908 said:

Hey fergdawg , just played this beta - default conditions, W/SW wind at 4-10 mph, black tees, Pin 4.

The sightline off the tee on Hole 2 is a bit odd. The bridge is right in the line of sight, and the chain link fence used as a railing doesn't quite look right to me. The hole itself is basically a 90-degree dogleg left, which is a slight concern. The planting here is a bit jarring - all the trees on the right are the same, and all the trees on the left, while different from the ones on the right, are also the same:


Hole 3, the left side of the green running off steeply into a bunker isn't ideal:


Hole 4, I was given a 4-iron off the tee on a 328-yard par-4 that aimed straight down a small bit of fairway. Clubbed up to driver, and there's no way I ever consider not going for the green here. The green is small-ish and has slope, but there's pretty much no danger if I miss it. I did like the fairway around the green that would catch any shot that rolled off the surface.

The green complex on Hole 6 is shaped in a way that will likely require folks who play it to chip or pitch on the green, due to the fact the bunker cuts into the green quite a bit:


Hole 8 is a 625-yard par-5 with three distinct split sections. The section on the right ends at 330 yards, so going there with driver is a gamble as the tee shot is downhill. The left section gives you a better angle and a shorter approach anyway, so I went over there. Still had 303 left to the hole on my second. The second shot is blind, and the layup zone is small. Laying up would leave me about 140 yards away:




I went for the green in two, and ended up in a flat-ish area of heavy rough on the bank of the river, 60 yards from the green.

Hole 10 is almost exactly the same has Hole 4. It's a 301-yard drivable par-4, where I was given 3-wood off the tee to aim down the fairway that ends 295 yards away from the tee. Again, clubbed up to driver and went for it. There's a bit more danger, as the river is closer, but this is a hole where you'd always go for the green off the tee. I even had 9 mph of breeze into my face and found the putting surface.

The green on Hole 11 has a slope on the right like the one on Hole 3 did on the left. Anything on the right side of the green is ushered down into a bunker:


Hole 13 is another beast of a par-5 into the wind. 590 yards long, and even with a drive of 305, I am left 334 from the pin. Driver off the deck on my second doesn't even reach the layup area across the river. Have to lay up in front of the river, still 140 yards away. And the green on this hole is absolutely massive:


The false front on the Hole 14 green is extreme, IMO. It's a 210 yard, 31-foot uphill par-3, and anything that's on the front 20-25 feet of the green is getting rejected off and sent down a hill that's well below the putting surface:


Hole 15 is another really long par-5 that's not even remotely reachable in two, and I even had the wind helping this time.

Didn't understand why there's a split in the fairway on Hole 16.

Again, Hole 18 is a par-4 where the fairway just stops and is split at about 355 yards from the tee and 117 yards from the hole. But there's no real need for it. I had a 4 mph wind at my back on this hole, and pushed my drive out there over 330 yards. If the wind is higher, driver might be the wrong play, and this is on a 471-yard hole. It just doesn't make sense to me why this is broken up:


The Hole 18 green also has slopes that funnel shots into sand.

In general, the look is not bad, but there is some quirkiness with planting...all the boundary trees are exactly the same. The planting by the river looks solid. I did get some lag that didn't affect shots, but was noticeable, especially near heavily planted spots close to the river. I didn't really care for the bridges with the chain link fences on them, especially when they were viewable right near the tee. They didn't look right to me.

I personally feel the scale of some parts of this course is off. The bunkers and greens are humongous and don't quite look right. It seems to be that you were going for waste areas with the sand, but they just look like really, really big "traditional" hazards. This isn't necessarily a problem, but it just looked a tad strange.

Also, the hole lengths are all pretty demanding (and are all quite similar):

- There are par-3s that are 180, 176, 212, 204, 207, and 207 again. 
- There are par-4s that are 475, 462, 510, 450, and 486.
- There are par-5s that are 638, 617, 643, and 640.

The only other holes on this course are the drivable par-4s and a mid-length par-4 that's 431 yards. It could use some more variety in lengths to offer some more interest.

The views and such aren't too bad at all, so that side of things is OK. Perhaps some tweaks here and there, and there wasn't much in the way of unintentional blindness. But honestly, the tree panting, hole design, some green slopes, and the scale of hole lengths and greens/bunkers were the areas of concern here for me.

I really hope this helps, and I do see a lot of good in this course, too. The setting is nice, the planting around the river is really good, and the textures you used are perfect for the look and feel of this course. I think some more attention to those other areas will bring this all together and provide a solid course.

Hi sroel908 ! Thanks so much for the review! It's funny: I thought I hadn't made the green slopes into the bunker severe enough on hole 3, 11, etc., because I could never hit a shot that landed the green and rolled down into them (lol). I can definitely flatten out those areas of the green.

As for the driveables ... how can I make them better? I actually pulled the teeshot back on both to make it not such an automatic driver or bust. I feel like that bramble bush to the right of 4 is pretty penal if you slow a driver in there. Also into a heavy wind, I usually take the 4 iron option (although the pitch is a gamble, so I definitely see your point). Should I maybe try lifting the land to the left so that even if you hit to the left of the green you're being thrown off to the right? I wasn't really sure I wanted to do that because so much of the green complex forces off toward the bramble already. I also felt pretty good about the fact that, depending on wind direction, 4 is driveable and 10 is not (or vice versa). I could move the tees further right on 4, favouring the layup, do you think that might help?

Definitely see your point about the planting .. I just went with ashes all the way down and maybe should have added different trees in there. I experimented with kashmir elms and their varieties along 2, 3, 4, etc. right side. But they never filled the space adequately and I'm already at 90% object meter. The creek planting is obviously non-negotiable, but you liked it anyway which is good!

I'm also aware that the 90 degree tee-shot on 2 isn't ideal ... but if I move the tees further over it's a huge walk from the green of 1 ... so I'm not sure how I could remedy that.

13 was kind of an annoying hole from the outset. It is long, I suppose I could shorten it, but I wanted to make it a choice off the tee between the left and right fairways (which I guess I also do to some extent on 15). That green (believe it or not) was bigger originally (I toned it down, lol!). So, I will re-evaluate that hole again.

Finally, what to do with the bridges? I wasn't super happy with the chain-link either, but I was concerned (for the golfers' safety) that without some kind of restraint, people will fall into a VERY fast-moving river!

Again, thank you for playing and offering me some super helpful feedback!

[sroel908]

Happy to help, fergdawg !

For the drivable par-4s, check out this video for ideas/thoughts/inspiration:

In my specific round, both 4 and 10 were drivable. Brining more danger into the equation is the biggest thing for me. Hole 10 had a little bit of danger with the river, but 4 was a no-brainer. I think that video will give you some ideas on how a drivable 4 can offer some decision making and pose some danger, while also offering the player a chance at eagle.

Using the same tree isn't necessarily the problem...to me, it was that all the ash trees are the in the same exact placement and are basically the same height. It comes off to me as unnatural.

The 90-degree hole isn't too bad...the fairway offers plenty of room to land, and you get a open view at the green. So I wouldn't worry too much about it, it's just something to be aware of.

As for the bridges...I think keeping them out of the direct line of sight is always a good idea, no matter what kind of bridge you're using. That view on the 2nd Hole is the "worst", where the bridge is right in front of the tee box. Perhaps wood fencing would be better? Or a different bridge that already includes a railing? Those would be my first thoughts.

[fergdawg]

Thanks a bunch sroel908 ! I really appreciate you taking time to do this, it really helps! In a week or so (maybe longer depending on life), I may release another beta taking on some of your suggestions. Keep on rocking in the free world, my man!

[fergdawg]

Hi all! So the 2nd beta of Phoenix River is out under the name PRK_2020_beta_2. Here are some new photos of how the track is progressing. I'll focus on major changes from the first beta.

This is the 4th hole. I lengthened it a little, so that the creek is much more in play. I also lengthened the fairway all the way down to near the shrubs, meaning you can hit a driver to the lay-up spot (though the shrubs make it not a great shot in). Ideal play if you're not driving it is still a 3 or 5-wood. I still need to flatten out the cartpath, but that'll be done for the final release.



The next major change came at the 6th. It was a shortish par 5 split by the creek. I really wasn't a fan. It was too long for a par 4, but always felt like a long par 4. So I moved the green and effects over to the left of the creek and made it a medium-short par 4. I love it, because it utilizes all the planting in that section of the course. The par is now 70 due to this change.



On 8 I lost the bunker to the left of the left fairway chunk. I also added a hog's back to the left fairway to make this a less automatic choice. You can get away with driver down the main fairway, but it's kind of tight (better with three wood). If you're downwind at all, you should either consider three wood or driver down the left fairway. I also manicured the layup spot short-left of the creek so that the sightline is better. Sightlines on this hole in general are better than in the first beta.



10 is still a good driveable four, but the decision is a little less clear-cut now. It's about a 280-yard carry to reach the sliver of the fairway before the green from the blue and black tees, and a slow fade will kick you into that rubbish short of the green, while a fast hook will kick you left into the rubbish over there. The fairway has also been lengthened, such that you can now hit a driver to the lay-up area and have about 130 in. I also worked on lowering the bottom of the greenside bunker.



I really wanted 12 to be a split fairway (same with 16 later), so I chose the nuclear option of a recessed valley full of river-bed shrubs and grasses. You can hit a driver, but a slow fade puts you in the bramble and it's pretty much unplayable. 3 wood recommended here.



13 I was never happy with, so I moved the green back a bit to make it truly reachable from the left fairway. It's a tough drive, but it is doable (requires a high draw over the tree-line). The reward is about a 240-250-yard shot into the green. The 'safer' option of the waypoint is out to the right, making this a three-shotter. I also did some work on the lay-up area short left of the creek to ensure it was a good option for the golfers. The green on this one is still not quite finished (it's caraaaaazy!) so please hold off on critiquing it too much. I'll flatten it a bit later. I had a hump there and basically moved the green to where the hump was, knocking about 40 yards off the hole in the process.





15 is more or less a complete redesign. The fairway no longer truncates, and the trees to the left of the fairway have been replaced by the course's signature bramble. I also made this one a do or die driving hole (similar to 13), where driving left of the bunker opens up a shortish 230-240 yard shot into a receptive green. Playing out to the recommended spot forces 3 into the green. Downwind, hit to the left, but beware: those bramble bushes are closer to the fairway than you think!



The final hole I redesigned was 16. Again, like 12, I really wanted a split fairway, as there was no way to make it a serious hole (as in not a "driver-pitch") while leaving the fairway as one unit. So I again chose the nuclear option of the recessed ditch splitting the fairway into two distinct sections. I think it works really nicely. Take a 3 or 5-wood and you'll have a nice 9 iron shot in. Driver will ultimately bounce off into the bramble, as the fairway slopes down toward it. One of my favourite holes after the redesign!



An example of where I had a split fairway and decided not to go nuclear was the 18th. Instead, I joined the two fairways and made the whole thing a unit, which I think works well, as it's a long hole anyway and there's really no reason to cut off driver, especially since the right fairway bunker almost always catches your eye and moves you in to it.



Finally, I added hole markers that you can probably see in the images on every hole. It's a large rock with the number embedded and shrubbery around.

Par 70, 7200-ish from the back tees, 7000-ish from the blues, 6500-ish from the whites, etc. etc. Greens play 174, and I haven't fully investigated, but I think most pins would be fair at 187. I still have about 45% of my object meter to play with, which I doubt I'll use, but any suggestions on objects to add to further the playing experience would be appreciated. I'm thinking of throwing in a gazebo somewhere on the creek maybe.

Hope you guys enjoy it and please give me some feedback if there are still things that catch your eye! So far this is shaping up to be my best contribution to the community and I hope you guys agree. Special shoutout to sroel908 for his help dissecting the first beta. I really think the second is a vast improvement on the first.

Cheers!

[fergdawg]

Hey, I'm curious to know if anyone has had a chance to give this a play and if I could get some feedback before the final release?

As I said, I still have a lot of object meter left to play with, so I can add more stuff aesthetically if there's anything it would benefit from. Really, I was focused on not cluttering it too much and keeping lag away (it's a minor issue on 16, but I think it's ok).

sroel908 provided me with excellent feedback, most of which I took on. I'd love to get your two cents on the new version. Also, maybe a sandgroper play? I love watching your vids and seeing your feedback. It's always super helpful!

Thanks guys! I know everyone's busy with judging etc., so apologies for nagging, but I want this one to be stellar!

PRK_2020_beta_2

[sroel908]

Hey fergdawg , just played beta_2...default conditions, black tees, pin 4. These are the same settings I played on the first go round.

Already noticed the cleaned-up planting on Hole 2. Looks better IMO.

As I'm playing thru the course, I'm getting the feeling that scale is a bit off. I didn't notice that before, but the greens and bunkers here are feeling quite massive. This is the Hole 3 green...I had just a 140-yard approach into it:


I had a gap wedge into this one:


Hole 7 tee area needs to be flattened.

Still not sure about the strategy on Hole 8...neither section of the fairway really puts you at an advantage, as you're the same distance away either side. The left side is narrower, so I'd go right each and every time I'd play this hole. I think I tried left last time, and had over 300 to the green...same story on the right.

Hole 10 tee box needs to be flattened.

The drivable hole 10 still feels very similar to hole 4...the only difference is that I cannot see the green or pin on Hole 10 tee.

Hole 11 tee box needs a bit of flattening. 

The Hole 11 green still has that really dramatic slope that covers a big portion of it that will send all shots into the sand. 

The trees planted on the property boarder along the right side of Hole 13 are all the same and look a bit unnatural.

I can tell you worked on this and made some changes. I do still think your par-5s are a bit much...none again were even close to being reachable in two. Not every one should be necessarily, but none of the par-5s here even made me consider it or gave me the option. The greens in most cases have very little slope...basically, they just go from one side to another and that's it. Some have internal sloping, but most do not. They just get a bit repetitive after a while.

[sandgroper]

OK fergdawg, because you asked so nicely ;-)

The plot looks really nice i.imgur.com/ELBkMRB.jpg
Good clubhouse i.imgur.com/u5Q8Kq6.jpg with some peeps out the front. One thing, the clubhouse seems to be sunk down a little and wouldn't have great views.
Just wondering on the big circle on the right hand side of the tee i.imgur.com/1L52ed9.jpg. It's a little barren.
I noticed a corner on your river i.imgur.com/XEmTqfa.jpg near the 15th green.

I played off the blue tees and pinset 3 to give a different perspective.
If I had to pick one thing it would be scale. Reading @sroel908 excellent playthrough I agree with most of this and I'd have a look at a couple of things.
Fairway width: Longer holes require more forgiveness and the first is a long par 4 out of the gate. I'm guessing the fairway would be over 50 yards wide?
So my approach shot looks like this i.imgur.com/4JEnIEc.jpg and then that bunker on the right would be another 30 yards wide?
And looking at the green it would be around 150 feet deep. Sop it's possible I could hit the wrong part of the green and not be able to get a putt there if it was up hill.
Bunkers: I'd break them up and create more of them and give them some shape to give better sightlines.

The tee shot on 2 seems a little blind and I'm not sure the greenskeeper should let those bushes get so high in front of a tee shot.
I was confused by the strategy on 8. It seemed to more like hopscotch, but I was looking for a more direct line home.
I had a fly around after the 9th on the way to the 10th and found a nice range (a long way from the clubhouse though) and the carpark with flat tyres. Cars snap to the ground not the carpark level, just something to watch.
The river next to the 13th seemed more of a canyon, so not sure if that's the look you were going for. The green is also around 160 feet deep which map be excessive.
I deliberately hit my ball off the green on 14 to see what kind of trouble I'd get into if I missed right. Answer, lots!
A couple of the bunkers (greenside 15) need a little more smoothing out for the saw-toothing.
Interesting spine running though the 16th green.
The bunker greenside on 18 is nearly the same size as the green.
Hopefully these comments help and a new set of eyes gets you on the way.

[fergdawg]

Beautiful! Thanks guys! You're both stars!

[fergdawg]

Fixed the corner of the river. Moved the teebox on 8 so it plays straighter (it's still a little like hopscotch, but I like how it plays now - it gives you two options for the second shot: left up the fairway with about 130-140 downhill shot into the green over the bunker, or the tougher right fairway shot which will leave you with a straight wedge shot, but it's over the river).

I've broken up the bunkers now into smaller units especially around the greens. I think it works pretty well now. Not really sure what to do about the hole 4/10 dilemma, since changing 10 completely would require an overhaul. I like how they play, since the layup on both holes is actually the best play 9 times out of 10. As for the par 5's, I'm surprised neither of you tried for the left-hand fairway on holes 13 and 15. If you take it on (requires a high drawing driver and it's pretty risky), hole 13 becomes a driver/ 3 wood into the green with my 288 driver. Same deal with 15. The safe play is certainly the one the waypoint suggests, but there is a possibility of heroism if you take on the difficult drive.

I really appreciate your comments on this. It really helped me to have some different perspectives and I think I'm almost there. Just a few more tweaks to (for example) 15 green and I think I can post it. May release a third beta, but probably not. I'll post some more pics of how the course is coming along over the next couple of days. Thanks again guys for your input, it really helped a lot.